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Poll: Have you used the ICE Conditions of Contract?
This poll is closed.
Yes
31.43%
11 31.43%
No
48.57%
17 48.57%
Ice? Yes please and lemon
20.00%
7 20.00%
Total 35 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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Have you used the ICE Conditions of Contract?
Posted by Unit of 1:
Quote:quote:What should a contract in which one archaeologist employs another archaeologist look like? How would it relate to the ice contract?
If the second archaeologist is an employee, then it would be a contract of employment and the ICE Contract would be irrelevant.

If the first archaeologist is employing the second archaeologist as a contractor to do a specific piece of work, then it would be open to the parties to use the ICE Contract, although in practice it would probably only be used for substantial pieces of work.


1man1desk

to let, fully furnished
Reply
Quote:quote:If the second archaeologist is an employee, then it would be a contract of employment and the ICE Contract would be irrelevant.

I hadn’t thought of it that way. So the ice contract is a way for one archaeologist to employ another but outside of a contract of the inland revenues pay as you earn employment rules. I will have to go and look at hosties employment or not rules again. So in the ice contract and guidance what is the archaeologist in charge of…Maybe this is a way for one archaeologist to employ another without having to take them on their books. Good one.

Reply
Quote:quote:The Planning Supervisor is a role set out in the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations (CDM), which is an important piece of health and safety legislation (although you couldn't tell that from the name.

This pretty left field. No mention in the Guidance or Contract/Appendix at all. Are you making this up as you go along or is an amendment to the contract necessary. In fact from my recollections there is virtually no mention of HSE in the contract –Well really

Reply
>Maybe this is a way for one archaeologist to employ another without having to take them on their books.


NOPE the rules is the rules... Inland revenue require proof of self employment - that means registered as self employed, insured etc..

"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Reply
Posted by Unit of 1:
Quote:quote:The Planning Supervisor is a role set out in the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations (CDM), which is an important piece of health and safety legislation (although you couldn't tell that from the name.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This pretty left field. No mention in the Guidance or Contract/Appendix at all. Are you making this up as you go along or is an amendment to the contract necessary.
No, I'm not making it up. The Contract does not have to explain about CDM, because CDM is the law - any Contractor or Employer has a legal obligation to comply with it, and therefore effectively an obligation to know about it. Including you, Mr Unit, if you work on construction sites. Ever done a watching brief in your self-employed capacity?

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished
Reply
Iman It is a mute point whether I work on construction sites or not. According to CIS I dont do any construction for tax proposes(see (or not) Starting out in Archaeology- CIS registered) . Does it follow that for purposes of health and safety I have to call them archaeological sites although by watching brief you might have the edge in implying that its a construction site. Currently we dont do watching briefs anymore in my area but programs of archaeological work which might suggest that we would like to hold onto the pretence that archaeology should be undertaken on archaeological sites.

1man are you now implying that the type of work that I do should come under the ice contract and that the Good Docs view that all fieldwork should come under an archaeological consultant is the correct implication of the ice contract.

For what I do, I fill out a risk assessment and give it to my client and anybody I deem responsible for assisting the archaeological ground works or who might be affected by my activity. I carry two paper copies in my file on site.

1man I was trying to work out the ambiguity between the term curator mentioned in the guide (and only used in the guide as a definition) and planning supervisor which is used in the ice guidance but not defined there. Also mentioned in the ice guide is the CDM term principle contractor which unfortunately is not related to any of the positions mentioned in the contract but asked for in the appendix to the ice contract. Is it not the Employer? Is this a pigs ear?

I have tried chasing the Planning Supervisor through the regs [1994 regs 2(1)] to see if I could recognise the possibility that an archaeological curator could be confused with the position of planning supervisor. I was hoping the Steve might have enlightened us. From what I can ascertain a planning supervisor is another consultant like

http://fenhydro.co.uk/leg_planningsup.htm

A consultants dream rather than an advisor to the local district planning directorate.

Where I lose the plot is in clause 13.2(a) where the Consultant is the planning Supervisor as well. I suspect that this combination is the position that you are employed in. It possibly suggests that the position is justified under HSE legislation. Where the plot thickens is whether a principle contractors archaeologist consultant can be the planning supervisor rather than what is allowed in the regulations that the principle contractor can be the planning supervisor if competent. It is also a total package. By this I mean that possibly the Good Doc cannot act as a planning supervisor as the position is presumably responsible for the whole construction activity.

In the ice guidance, clause 13, that I have, it states that there is ambiguity concerning the application of the CDM regulations to archaeological work. It does not say why there is an ambiguity. The guide goes on to say that intention of the conditions of contract is that the archaeological contractor does not perform the role of either principle contractor or planning supervisor. Why this do not clause it does not say.

What could be interesting about this does not clause is how two way the does not perform the role of is. In other words what should the archaeologists do rather than the consultant (archaeologist) particularly in the area of liasing with the curators.

Hosty, my point is that through the creation of two archaeological positions in the ice contract, can one employ the other without their positions being compromised for the purpose of the contract? If not, you dont need a consultant.

Roillg, rollig, gollri, rigoll, lolrig, girlol, liglor, logirl, lirgol, lglrio, I can see how its moreish and would make a little more sense with a few hays.
Reply
>>> Hosty, my point is that through the creation of two archaeological positions in the ice contract, can one employ the other without their positions being compromised for the purpose of the contract? If not, you dont need a consultant. <<<

I hope this can be answered with a yes / no

I am getting slightly tied in knots here, and wonder where we go.

Nobody else seems to have a problem with it... ?

"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Reply
Uo1

In the second Approved Code of Practice (ACOP) that accompanied the first CDM Regs, some clarity was provided with regard to certain works that may be excluded from the Regs by virtue of not actually bei ng 'construction' - remember that the CDM Regs only apply to construction.

These excluded activities included archaeological works that may be undertaken in advance of construction - i.e. before any other contractor is on the job.

However, once a construction project falls within CDM, all works including archaeological ones are deemed to be within the Regs. Thus if you are carrying out a watching brief on a construction site which is subject to CDM, then you are subject to CDM and would become a 'Contractor' as defined by the CDM Regs, and would have to carry out the duries of a 'Contractor' as defined by the Regs.

If you are carrying out an excavation on a construction site which is subject to CDM then you are subject to CDM and would become a 'Contractor' as defined by the Regs. If you produced the Method Statement for the excavation then you may also be a 'Designer' as defined by the Regs. I have always considered that a CAO producing a Brief would also be a 'Designer'.

If you are the only contractor on site at the time of the works then you may need to be the 'Principal Contractor' as defined by the Regs, because there always has to be a 'Principal Contractor'. It is possible (but not necessarily wise) for an archaeologist or archaeological unit to be a 'Planning Supervisor' as defined by the Regs.

If asked to be a 'Principal Contractor' or a 'Planning Supervisor' any archaeologist should seek independent advice, as these positions carry defined legal responsibilities. Separate budgets for undertaking these duties should be clearly identified.

Also remember, the ACOP merely represents the HSEs current understanding of the Regs., but this is not always the same understanding that may be reached in a court of law.

In the event of an accident on site, the prosecuting authority may go after everyone involved and the ACOP may be found to be wanting in some way - i.e. just because the ACOP says that advance archaeological works are not 'construction' doesn't mean that advance archaeological workw are not 'construction'! A little bit of case law would go a long way towards settling this, but unfortunately would only come as the result of an accident followed by a prosecution.

Beamo
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Thanks fot that Beamo.

I think the point that you make about the ACOP

HSEs current understanding of the Regs but this is not always the same understanding that may be reached in a court of law.

is an important one.

One indicator of if archaeology is a construction activity must be is planning permission neccessary. Most planning officers will say no - I would suggest that sometimes is a more correct activity. A big strip map sample exercise with several machines and loads of dumpers I would suggest is clearly an engineering operation and indeed is the sort of activity that the CDM regulations are designed to cover.

I agree with 1man1desk that a knowledge of CDM regulations can be expected as it can be a legal requirement. It could however become a clause, for the avoidance of doubt in any event, or in the CDM regulations are deemed not to apply to the project.

Section 13 of the contract deals with CDM regulations in that it is setting how for mechanism for implementing the CDM regulations and extra payments for complying with the regulations.

Peter Wardle


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'Employer', 'Contractor' and 'Consultant' are terms defined in the Contract because they are central to its operation.

'Curator' is defined for information, because it is a common shorthand term in the archaeological profession, but won't be familiar to non-archaeologists (at least, not with the same meaning).

'Planning Supervisor' is not defined, because it is defined in law. It is a health-and-safety management role; nothing directly to do with either archaeology or town-and-country planning. I know the name is confusing and misleading, but don't blame me or the authors of the Contract - it was a term prescribed by law.

I don't believe anyone else has found any ambiguity or confusion between the terms 'curator' and 'Planning Supervisor' - two unrelated roles.

Quote:quote:1man are you now implying that the type of work that I do should come under the ice contract and that the Good Docs view that all fieldwork should come under an archaeological consultant is the correct implication of the ice contract.
No, I am not implying that. In my last post, I was emphasising that all the work you do (just like anyone else) comes under health and safety law.
I don't believe that all archaeological work should come under a consultant, or under the ICE Contract. Both Consultants and the Contract are optional. However, I do believe that developer-funded projects of medium to large size benefit from being managed by a Consultant, and that in such projects the use of the ICE Contract helps to protect the interests of both the client (= the Employer) and the Contractor.
Quote:quote:Where I lose the plot is in clause 13.2(a) where the Consultant is the planning Supervisor as well. I suspect that this combination is the position that you are employed in.
You suspect wrongly. I have often been the Consultant, but never the Planning Supervisor, and I would not accept that role as I don't have the expertise.
Quote:quote:By this I mean that possibly the Good Doc cannot act as a planning supervisor as the position is presumably responsible for the whole construction activity.
You are correct in saying that the PS is responsible for the whole 'construction' operation - but under some circumstances that might principally consist of an archaeological phase of works, and a new PS could take over for later stages where the 'construction' actually involves building something. Not good practice, in my view, but it could be done.

Now, to get back on topic. Mr Sith originally asked for the comments of people who had come into contact with the Contract. You clearly haven't, except for the purposes of posting on this thread. We gather that you don't like it and you don't understand it. Well, no-one is trying to make you use it, so can we make room for some comments from those who have actual experience of the Contract?


1man1desk

to let, fully furnished
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