Sexual harassment

[Kel]

And another thing....

I think in the context hosty used it, as a slang term referring to a party with more men than women, it's hard to find it too insulting and I have heard it used in that way (although the implication is surely 'sad desperate men outnumbering the, therefore less sad and desperate women' is surely fairly insulting). However, used in the context of describing a workplace I would say it is pretty inappropriate and potentially insulting. I don't think it would bother me but I'd pretty embarrassed for the poor sod who used it. I assume calling a workplace dominated by women a 'mellon fest' or similar would be OK then?

The point is that it may or may not be seen as offensive depending on the circumstances but one can't assume anything.

If the context is so key, let's remember that we were discussing male-dominated work environments. Have you ever worked in a male-dominated work environment where the men could be described as either generally sad and/or desperate? No. me neither. So how you could possibly be interpreting "sausage-fest" in your alternative manner in the context of this conversation is, by your own logic, entirely mystifying.

And the fact that no such phrase as "mellon fest" exists, tells you everything you need to know about that suggestion.

[RedEarth]

I, like a lot of people, (I assume, I could be wrong, apparently I am about most things) don't carry a copy of the Urban Dictionary around with me or spend a lot of time referring it to it. Apparently 'twerking' was just added to the actual dictionary, by the time you read this 'mellon-farm' might be in the urban one...

This has now seemingly been blown out of all proportion, but that is was the whole point, a throw-away remark by you might be mis-interpreted by another (perhaps someone not familiar with the term used) as highly offensive. The area is a minefield, and now I am being accused of I'm not sure what, and women can't be sexist(?).

You seem to contradict yourself, you were describing a male dominated workplace as a 'sausage fest', hosty was referring to the term in the context of a party (by which I assumed he meant a drinking/dancing type of party, perhaps with cheese on sticks, who knows? Perhaps you took 'party' as meaning 'group of people'. That's the trouble with the written word, not always easy to interpret the meaning, if only someone would come up with a book that had all the meaning of words written down in a logical order. Someone else could then write one to explain what certain expressions meant in a built-up environment). Either way, I think an internal company email that described a workplace as a 'sausage-fest' might not go down to well (unless your workplace was in Germany, shit, I'm being racist now!), but you might get away with it in conversation.

Anyway, this isn't adding anything much to what was an important topic. Bored now...

[BAJR]

IN a way it is adding to the debate. by showing how things can get out of hand. However, it also shows that there must be a way for people to say - I don't like that... and not feel that they are being somehow in teh wrong.

Just in as much as it should take one request - saying I would prefer that you did not make sexual comments about me... OR racial comments OR etc... IT can be difficult - or even embarrassing, when "everyone else" is treating it like a joke. I try to consider my words and actions. and still amnage to make mistakes. but at least I can see them... and know where I go to far. I often make jokes about an American friend.. however, this is balanced by a very clear signal that it is done in jest and it is reciprocated. and in no way means that either of us have a lesser opinion of each other or each others country of origin. same with sexual harassment. indeed. one has to ask... why people find it needful to make sexual comments about colleagues. that is one of the simplest ones to ( or should be ) to deal with. NO SEXUAL COMMENTS> but... then the nuances come in. like this last few posts.

The point is that we should be allowed to say where the line of propriety is.

[Jack]

IN a way it is adding to the debate. by showing how things can get out of hand. However, it also shows that there must be a way for people to say - I don't like that... and not feel that they are being somehow in teh wrong.

Spot on I'd say hosty.

<snip>... why people find it needful to make sexual comments about colleagues. that is one of the simplest ones to ( or should be ) to deal with. NO SEXUAL COMMENTS> but... then the nuances come in. like this last few posts.

The point is that we should be allowed to say where the line of propriety is.

I believe joking, ribbing etc is part of the system of social sanctions that has evolved through the ages as a way for a group/ society to a) arrive at what is the accepted set of rules within that group; b) propagate/ enforce those rules.

groups/ societies rely on an accepted set of 'rules' and their enforcement through sanctions (if I remember my social anthropology correctly), whether its the innuit, sans tribesmen or a bunch of diggers.

There is probably a reason why humans are so obsessed with sexual prowess/ attributes...........may be more biological than sociological.

As a tangent, how about someone with a mild mental illness that means they don't understand social norms?

[kevin wooldridge]

As a tangent, how about someone with a mild mental illness that means they don't understand social norms?

Interesting tangent...I am not sure what mental incapacity you are thinking of, but I guess it falls short of being diagnosed as a psychopath!!

But of course there are many shades as to what might constitute intimidation at work. For example. How about someone who was perfectly competent and actually even nice to everyone around them, but just happened to have a swaztika tattooed on their forehead (claiming that it was a youthful indiscretion they now regretted, but the tattoo remained).....or a Union Jack.....or Jesus Lives...or a naked woman tattooed on their arm? Or (as I think actually happened in the UK) an archaeologist who appeared competent at their job but whose 'outside life' just happened to include being an elected councillor for an extreme right-wing party....all of which might cause some degree of discomfort to a majority/minority of the rest of the staff.....Clearly there is no generic 'Equalities' policy which can cover every eccentricity of our lives.....each situation has to be decided on its merits and include consultation with those who have to work with or around the individual concerned

[RedEarth]

Interesting tangent...I am not sure what mental incapacity you are thinking of, but I guess it falls short of being diagnosed as a psychopath!!

I'm guessing you could count the number of archaeologists with some form of autism (diagnosed or otherwise) working in the UK today on two hands. That might cover it.

[kevin wooldridge]

I'm guessing you could count the number of archaeologists with some form of autism (diagnosed or otherwise) working in the UK today on two hands. That might cover it.

Just checking Wikipedia....the population average for pervasive developmental disorders (the autism spectrum) is 6 per 1000.....so maybe there are closer to '4 hands worth' if our profession respects the population as a whole.

Personally I suspect there are rather more than that, (particularly in the realm of Aspergers and OCD), which might suggest (without giving succour to the blatantly sexist, racist or to bullies) that archaeological equalities policies and the expected norms of socially acceptable behaviour need to be adjusted from that which might be expected of 'normal' society....

[Antipesto]

Somebody once told me that Archaeology tends to attract people on the autistic spectrum. Living in the past/immersing themselves in past society can also be read as uncomfortable/unable to fit with the present/society, and I know more than a few archaeologists who seem to struggle with what I would think of as societal norms (but it might just be me thats the weird one).

[BAJR]

I would agree that our little group are more in the autistic range than what is seen as the norm.

I alrady seem to know the 2 hands worth at least. and count myself as a person who enjoys lists. and carrying out activities in a particular order. and I know several that do not realise the offence they are causing,.... they really don't./

so interesting aside.

[Unitof1]

wondering if ageism is involved in all of this horrible mess

--are the harassers mostly older than the victims....?