HS2 high-speed - archaeologists jamboree?

[P Prentice]

surely it is about upgrading transport infrastructure for the benefit of the nation. why are you so sure you know other peoples business needs better than they do? you certainly appear to know nothing about internal flights. it is attitudes like yours that are resoponsible for our useless road system (when compared to european systems).

[Wax]

Mr PP s attitude is why I will not continue the discussion I dont know if Iam right or wrong but why is PP so sure HS2 is about improving transport infra structure for the nation? That seems niave in the extreme.

I have friends and family in other lines of work to archaeology who use internal flights a lot, and it depends where you live and what your business is as to how useful they are and in some cases they are a damn site easier than road or rail. But of course PP knows everything about everything

[beamo]

I use internal flights along with road and rail - it all depends on what suits best for a particular journey. HS2 should not be seen as a substitute for internal flights - those who prefer to fly will carry on doing it no matter how quick the rail journey becomes.


I prefer to see HS2 in the context of the national rail network rather than simply a faster way to get from A to B. Having worked on a number of rail projects, one of the key issues is that of capacity. The West Coast Mainline is operating close to full capacity at the moment and passenger numbers are continuing to increase. It would be possible to increase capacity but this would be very expensive (as the line passes through built-up areas in many places) and would really just be a temporary solution. Building a new route is a good idea in terms of the overall network - it will free up a considerable amount of capacity on the West Coast Mainline (and other lines) which will allow for the establishment of better local passenger services and bettter freight services, both of which will take traffic off the road network. If there is going to be a new route, it might as well be a high speed line. Yes it will impact on the historic environment - as do new roads, runways and other major developments - as PP has pointed out (and NPPF, PPS5 etc) we need to look at the wider public benefits when considering such schemes.


Beamo

[Jack]

To archaeologists, the HS2 high-speed rail scheme is "one huge trench across the country", an unprecedented 350-mile bonanza that promises to open up England's ancient backbone and shoulders for meticulous study in a way never before possible..............<snip>

Or an opportunity to destroy a vast swathe of that troublesome archaeology............depends on the mitigation strategy and/or expertese of those doing the consultancy and/or fieldwork...............

Beware of strategies like oh if nothing shows up in the DBA or geophysics there's nothing their...............or the we'll strip a 5m wide corridor, if there is nothing in there then there'll be nowt in the rest of the corridor!
These things destroy archaeology as a necessity, it is impractical and prohibitively to strip map and record the full impact footprint.

[GnomeKing]

Or an opportunity to destroy a vast swathe of that troublesome archaeology............depends on the mitigation strategy and/or expertese of those doing the consultancy and/or fieldwork...............

Beware of strategies like oh if nothing shows up in the DBA or geophysics there's nothing there...............or the we'll strip a 5m wide corridor, if there is nothing in there then there'll be nowt in the rest of the corridor!
These things destroy archaeology as a necessity, it is impractical and prohibitively to strip map and record the full impact footprint.

too damn right Jk - (Wax too! - as always)

also : do we need a reminder of what the (only?) study of the effectivness of commercial Evaluation Trench Survey actually said c. 20 years ago ? (tip 1: preshistoric archaeology is vastly under-predicted)


"one huge swath..." ... "meticulus study like never before " - can say that again !- very effing much LOL - recent expeirence (over the last 5 years or so) suggests a rather different prospect


But really, never mind the archaeology - it can, as always, wait....do we seriously think HS2 is a good idea?
some people seem to have sucked up all the lobbying and propaganda like mana from the ConDem teat (at least we drop that word next year..

HS2 will not deliver what is promised and is vastly overpriced -
who really benifits ?
more importantly: WHAT ELSE COULD BE DONE WITH THE MONEY INSTEAD ?

here is one view;
shouty? - yes, wackjob? - maybe..., but i tend to agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIEdYl2wfUQ

[P Prentice]

Mr PP s attitude is why I will not continue the discussion I dont know if Iam right or wrong but why is PP so sure HS2 is about improving transport infra structure for the nation? That seems niave in the extreme.

I have friends and family in other lines of work to archaeology who use internal flights a lot, and it depends where you live and what your business is as to how useful they are and in some cases they are a damn site easier than road or rail. But of course PP knows everything about everything

i spend a lot of time waiting at airports in this country - domestic flights - i would rather use a train. it is still quicker to drive across the channel than it is to fly and much quicker to chunnel. air travel is poisonous, inefficient and elitist - soon to be the preserve of the wealthy only. i want better options and you want your head in the sand worrying about a resource that is diminishing in front of your eyes for want of a reason to dig it up!

[Jack]

i spend a lot of time waiting at airports in this country - domestic flights - i would rather use a train. it is still quicker to drive across the channel than it is to fly and much quicker to chunnel. air travel is poisonous, inefficient and elitist - soon to be the preserve of the wealthy only. i want better options and you want your head in the sand worrying about a resource that is diminishing in front of your eyes for want of a reason to dig it up!

Oooh, you'd like my ideas on banning all plane and road travel to be replaced by helibusses (as in Henry's Cat) and airships

[Jack]

too damn right Jk - (Wax too! - as always)

also : do we need a reminder of what the (only?) study of the effectivness of commercial Evaluation Trench Survey actually said c. 20 years ago ? (tip 1: preshistoric archaeology is vastly under-predicted)


"one huge swath..." ... "meticulus study like never before " - can say that again !- very effing much LOL - recent expeirence (over the last 5 years or so) suggests a rather different prospect


But really, never mind the archaeology - it can, as always, wait....do we seriously think HS2 is a good idea?
some people seem to have sucked up all the lobbying and propaganda like mana from the ConDem teat (at least we drop that word next year..

HS2 will not deliver what is promised and is vastly overpriced -
who really benifits ?
more importantly: WHAT ELSE COULD BE DONE WITH THE MONEY INSTEAD ?

here is one view;
shouty? - yes, wackjob? - maybe..., but i tend to agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIEdYl2wfUQ

Big public works are a great way to boost the economy in a roundabout way.

More jobs, more materials/fuel being used/bought, more money in the pockets of those with the jobs, more spending in local bacon butty shops, more work/jobs for inspectors/ecologists/archaeologists, more stock moved by hi-vis companies, what colour will they be this year? etc etc

[Mike.T.]

Is it worth spending £billions to reduce the travel time from London to Birmingham by half an hour ? The money would be better spent elsewhere. The main problem with rail travel in the UK is the high ticket cost and overcrowded trains. I can't see HS2 addressing those issues.

[Land-Escapist]

To play devil's advocate (or just silly optimist), if they were to invest the money in HS2, then surely it would lead to further investment in the local railway lines to connect everyone better to HS2, whether that is through electrification of existing lines, or re-opening old lines. Plenty of old coal lines particularly round West Yorkshire that could be upgraded. It would speed up my journey on Grand Central, where it takes just as long to get from Bradford to Doncaster as it does Doncaster to London... As much as I would like that to happen without a major infrastructure project.

And if it were to go ahead, there are going to be logistical issues on a grand scale in terms of how the work will be divvied up, will it happen all in one go etc etc. There are still far too many unknowns at the moment to even begin to consider how we are going to tackle this archaeologically. I guess a lot of other professions are having a lot of logistical headaches too about how this is all going to happen. So I guess fingers crossed that the subsequent government cancels it?

Are we as a profession ready to tackle such a huge infrastructure project? Because we will probably need to be at some point...

Sorry, lots of rambling, nonsensical thoughts just generally spilling from my brain, to my fingers, through the keyboard and now for you wonderful people to get confused about... :p Not to mention my whole general confusion at how a rail network can be privatised when I cant choose which train company I get on a train with...