Is it me? the rise of teh "trainee"

[Dinosaur]

i dont think BigBadCompanies actually care about the 'quality' of the staff -it just leads to more archaeology found, more information recovered, and buggers up a consultants estimates for post-ex costings....

Yup, the 'find and record as much as possible before it's trashed' approach used around here certainly seems to be causing a lot of grief higher up the food chain...and full marks to the workforce, good crew :face-approve:

[P Prentice]

. In turn this is one of the first things I tell the trainees I am now teaching how to dig.

are your trainees archaeology graduates or are you not fussed?

[Jack]

Does that explanation work when a client complains about the speed of progress on site?

Grin. I wish!

But thinking about it......yes it does! In the case of stipping the total area of a site the doing the archaeology, rather than stripping a little bit at a time and dealing with what archaeology is in that bit before moving on.

The efficiency obviously lying with the stripping the full area.

[Jack]

Is it still the 1970s where you are?

Is the other half to that sentence 'and if they aren't interested in archaeology they are clearly some sort of sub-human scum'?

It is the 70's where I am...the 4070'sBC

And no, that isn't the other half of the sentence. I truly believe that if people aren't interested in archaeology they would be better off getting a proper job where the pay, conditions, promotional options are much better.

[Dinosaur]

Eek! Think you're about to get a kicking over your use of the word 'proper' }

[P Prentice]

I truly believe that if people aren't interested in archaeology they would be better off getting a proper job where the pay, conditions, promotional options are much better.

but the two shouldnt be mutually exclusive. you are espousing the credo that ensures poor pay, conditions and promotional options

[RedEarth]

but the two shouldnt be mutually exclusive. you are espousing the credo that ensures poor pay, conditions and promotional options

Exactly, which is the status quo people like Jack want to preserve as it maintains their position as the righteous ones or whatever the fuck they think they are.

[Jack]

Exactly, which is the status quo people like Jack want to preserve as it maintains their position as the righteous ones or whatever the fuck they think they are.

Ah, I see the confusion I have created.

I do not at all want to preserve the status quo! I wish we all got paid a wage that was in line with other industries, but we don't.

I was referring to the here and now, the immediacy of running an excavation and saving as much archaeology as possible today. I, like everyone would be better off (financially) working in an IT office, working for a bank, as an engineer, or even driving a bin lorry. But I chose not to.

I just can't understand (in the immediacy) anyone doing archaeology who isn't interested in it. You'd get paid a considerable amount more doing something else that you are just as disinterested in. So why settle for less money?

Nothing I say or do effects what people get paid, other than on an individual basis and within someone else's pay-grade scheme.

I have no such credo to keep others down - what, are we in Stalinist Russia or something?

I would much rather all archaeologists - no matter what level they are at were raised on a public platform and heralded as heros and paid the equivalence of footballer's wages for attempting to save everyone's cultural heritage.

You could equally say its all BAJR's fault as the published minima are so low (though that is NOT my opinion). BAJR's pay grades should start at 30k and go up to 150k for managers.

But yeah keep the abuse coming, I thrive on it :face-stir:

Oh and PP, of course they shouldn't! It's just, at the moment, they seem to be!
Lobby the government, change legislation = a re-evaluation of the cost/worth of archaeology = a change in pay and conditions for archaeologists...........use ecology/climatology as a model

Cultural diversity is just as important as biodiversity for the survival of the human race.

[RedEarth]

Ah, I see the confusion I have created.

I do not at all want to preserve the status quo! I wish we all got paid a wage that was in line with other industries, but we don't.

I was referring to the here and now, the immediacy of running an excavation and saving as much archaeology as possible today. I, like everyone would be better off (financially) working in an IT office, working for a bank, as an engineer, or even driving a bin lorry. But I chose not to.

I just can't understand (in the immediacy) anyone doing archaeology who isn't interested in it. You'd get paid a considerable amount more doing something else that you are just as disinterested in. So why settle for less money?

Nothing I say or do effects what people get paid, other than on an individual basis and within someone else's pay-grade scheme.

I have no such credo to keep others down - what, are we in Stalinist Russia or something?

I would much rather all archaeologists - no matter what level they are at were raised on a public platform and heralded as heros and paid the equivalence of footballer's wages for attempting to save everyone's cultural heritage.

You could equally say its all BAJR's fault as the published minima are so low (though that is NOT my opinion). BAJR's pay grades should start at 30k and go up to 150k for managers.

But yeah keep the abuse coming, I thrive on it :face-stir:

Oh and PP, of course they shouldn't! It's just, at the moment, they seem to be!
Lobby the government, change legislation = a re-evaluation of the cost/worth of archaeology = a change in pay and conditions for archaeologists...........use ecology/climatology as a model

Cultural diversity is just as important as biodiversity for the survival of the human race.

Thanks for clarifying, sorry if that felt like abuse, although you do kind of ask for it.

However, there is a difference between working in archaeology because you are interested in it (I too would find it hard to believe there can be anyone who works in archaeology who isn't at least fairly interested) and being obsessed to the point where you willingly forego any kind of life outside of it and consider that to be a normal and reasonable state of affairs for everyone. It is then a slippery slope - a small number put themselves in that position, so everyone is expected to follow suit, and pay and conditions suffer. I'm not saying it is the sole cause of the problems in commercial archaeology that we have today, but it certainly doesn't help, and I'm sure that attitude of 'we have to save as much archaeology as we can now because imagine the terrible consequences if we don't so everyone has to give 110% all the time' is exploited by those higher up the employment chain.

[Tool]

I've been rather amused by the posts since I last wrote on here!

If I were a sensitive soul I could have been quite offended by some of the responses. I don't have a soul, so I laughed. But I do feel some things need to be said.
1) I've been doing this for 11 months now. It took considerably more than two weeks to get promoted from trainee. And rightly so. I have yet to meet anyone who could be left alone to identify, excavate, record and interpret all the diverse archaeology we in commercial archaeology have to deal with within that time. Now, if you consider that you can train someone to that standard within that timeframe, I'd question what it is you actually want from people working in this industry. And more to the point, I would worry about the archaeology!
2) I mentioned, to some derision, that there are still occasions where the extent of features has been debatable even to experienced POs. My opinion is that where things are uncertain, the best person to make the decision, regardless of my own feeling, is the person who has the responsibility for offering the overall interpretation of the site. And that is the PO. So, through a process of dialogue, we come to a conclusion. Archaeology is both a collaborative and a subjective business. If you think you can, 100% of the time and entirely on your own, get it all right then I would call you a liar to your face. It ain't happening.
3) Should we go that extra mile? Yes. I'm with Jack on this. We don't do this just as a job - you want to do physical work for decent pay? Go work in construction. The only reason that we do this is because we give a shit. Having said that, it does not excuse poor pay and conditions. But to achieve better needs a better approach. I've previously posted my views on the subject and no-one else seems to agree. So I guess we'll have to continue destroying our bodies for next to sod all for a good while yet... Ultimately you do have a choice. This business gives you a whole host of transferable skills. Don't like what you get out of archaeology? Go do something else. It's up to you.

Happy digging!