distinctive regional traditions

[P Prentice]

Did pastoralist farmers exist in the Neolithic? Did they drive their herds through the forest?
Did neolithic people 'trade', what form did this trade take place?

Leading on to the big 4 (in my mind)..... What was the nature of neolithic settlement, agriculture, territoriality and inter-contact?

was there any neolithic settlement? what is settlement? how do you settle?
was there any neolithic agriculture, what is agriculture?
what was a neolithic territory? what was a neolithic family?
what was neolithic trade? axes? religeon? pottery? sheep?
hypothesis makes perfect (p prentice 2014)

[Jack]

Nice.

was there any neolithic settlement? what is settlement? how do you settle?

There were 'neolithic' settlements during the meso/neolithic transition and the continent. There are lone structures and small settlements dated to the 'neolithic' in this country.
There are 'pit sites' that seem to have no buildings, there are pit sites with corresponding houses, there are pit sites that seem to define a rectangular space where a house used to be.
There is the durrington walls settlement.

People have to 'live' somewhere, even if its on a temporary basis.

A while ago few neolithic settlement sites such as Skara Brae and Ehenside tarn were known.

Before Durrington walls, though neolithic villages and towns exist in the middle east and the balkans, the idea of a neolithic village in the UK was preposterous.

I wonder what we will know tommorow?

was there any neolithic agriculture, what is agriculture?

Yes.

Apparently Biochemists can now chemically test charred grain to test if it has been artificially manured and irrigated. Post-processual-shattering results.:face-stir:

what was a neolithic territory? what was a neolithic family?

Indeed, deep and problematic. Probably need a time machine to resolve that one unless someone finds a whole preserved landscape under the peat somewhere (see Kilnmatin). Anyone fancy stripping west Ireland or shetland of peat?

However......

Where there are animals utilising resources there is competition. Where there is competition there is conflict. Where there is conflict resolution there are territories.

what was neolithic trade? axes? religeon? pottery? sheep?
hypothesis makes perfect (p prentice 2014)

More difficult.

Movement of material culture could be through a multitude of vectors not just trade.

How can archaeologists recognise the difference between long-distance trade, down-the-line exchange, political gift exchanges, socially obligated gift exchanges, movement of people (and their stuff)? Or worse still, combinations of the above?

What we understand as 'trade' may not have existed till more recently.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

[P Prentice]

but how long do you have to stay in one place for that place to be called a settlement? if you visit the same building once per year is that building a settlement? if you pitch your tent at the same place each year, or twice a year, is that place a settlement?
just because some cereal seeds got mixed in some clay that then bacame a pot does that mean the potter was a farmer? or her neighbour, family friend, cousin ....? if cereals where elite commodoties how far would they be traded? were they grown in arenas - we might call causewayed camp or cursus?
facts dont exist

[Dinosaur]

Need more data, diggers (and supervisors/POs) on the ground need educating better on what to record, what to sample, what to keep, have noted a deplorable lack of knowledge/understanding of archaeological science, don't they teach any of that stuff at Uni these days? No one ever seems to think of e.g. taking pollen grab-samples from suitable deposits other than peat

[Jack]

Love it

but how long do you have to stay in one place for that place to be called a settlement? if you visit the same building once per year is that building a settlement? if you pitch your tent at the same place each year, or twice a year, is that place a settlement?

That is indeed at the crux of many academic arguments I have read.

But I would go in a different direction because without more accurate dating evidence (for instance dedrochronology - when it works well) we are always examining compressed time. That is to say even when comparing the fills of two pits (for instance) we can't tell their chronological relationship other than within an accuracy of 100 years or so. Therefore any arguments about how long a gap between the digging of one and the digging of the other is moot. Therefore how can we tell how long human activity around the 'site' occured.
Answer we can't.

The poor schmo(s) digging the pit could have spent their entire lifetime living next to one pit, or a mere half an hour. The results of us digging the pit, analysing the contents would look the same.

I feel it would be more useful to gather data in big databases, then ask the databases whether such theories could have been so.

Besides I agree the definition of 'what is a settlement' is as wooly as many other academic definitions. But turn it on its head, how many people now are regularly away from their main place of residence? Are they nomadic? Are the villages of second homes not settlements?

just because some cereal seeds got mixed in some clay that then bacame a pot does that mean the potter was a farmer? or her neighbour, family friend, cousin ....? if cereals where elite commodoties how far would they be traded? were they grown in arenas - we might call causewayed camp or cursus?

How about thousands of charred grains that were artificially manured and irrigated. How could a nomadic people produce these? Unless of course they set up automatic irrigation/ manuring machinery?

In your eluded ritual-based economy, what were the people eating?

facts dont exist

[h=1]scientific fact[/h]
noun
any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has not been refuted
Examples
The structure of a cell membrane is considered a scientific fact.

[P Prentice]

....I feel it would be more useful to gather data in big databases, then ask the databases whether such theories could have been so.


How about thousands of charred grains that were artificially manured and irrigated. How could a nomadic people produce these? Unless of course they set up automatic irrigation/ manuring machinery?

In your eluded ritual-based economy, what were the people eating?

when will the databases be big enough? where's the fun in that - for us?
thousands of charred grains artificially manured??
i am happy to talk about a diverse neolithic with discreet areas of semi permanent settlement where pioneer agriculturalists from europe set up farmsteads or took to shepherding amongst the mesolithic indiginous. i would see the production of cereal crop as a much later development that slowly spread from the later neolithic. i think the transition was mostly about controling livestock and the slow process of transforming the wildwood into fodder.
ritual based economy?? not ever

[Jack]

In brief TIME running out.....

when will the databases be big enough? where's the fun in that - for us?

When they represent a statistically representative sample of the total.................the fun is in disproving theories and getting closer to what is left (however improbable)

thousands of charred grains artificially manured??

Coming soon.....extrapolating what has happened in recent studies/papers and what is likely to happen next. Not delved too deep into the science or the debate yet...found a paper where grain from all over Europe (including Lismore Fields and Windmill Hill) were tested. I think all showed evidence that the grain was grown with artificial manuring and irrigation...something (I think) unlikely to have been possibly by nomads.

i am happy to talk about a diverse neolithic with discreet areas of semi permanent settlement where pioneer agriculturalists from europe set up farmsteads or took to shepherding amongst the mesolithic indiginous. i would see the production of cereal crop as a much later development that slowly spread from the later neolithic. i think the transition was mostly about controling livestock and the slow process of transforming the wildwood into fodder.

It could be just that, dating, databases and a representative statistical sample of the sites are not yet big, strong or accurate enough yet. What percentage of the data is lying untouched in the grey literature?

But yep me too, diversity I feel is the key.....you listening Mr Thomas and crew, what happened in Wiltshire is probably not the same as what happened elsewhere.

ritual based economy?? not ever

Sorry, was teasing. }

[Dinosaur]

Would stick a vastly controversial pic on at this point, but no idea how, what's with all the Url stuff? :face-crying: - covers 'territories' and 'routes' nicely - so you'll just have to come to one of my once-in-a-blue-moon lectures instead, usually seem to manage to slip it in

[Dinosaur]

What percentage of the data is lying untouched in the grey literature?

And what percentage has just been ignored or not recognised (or its significance not recognised) by the original excavators? Sadly much of the potential data lies/lay within those 'undated' pits scattered across the landscape. Even published site plans are often littered with features never mentioned anywhere in the text

[Jack]

This is how you put in a pic...... urk that didn't work

Cut and paste...yeah dunno what the URL stuff is on the insert picture button :face-huh: