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10th February 2009, 11:59 AM
Hi Oddie - I don't go for this 'all of our ancestors' argument. Even kicking out the old Iron Age invasion hypotheses we know that the Romans inter-married with Britons, as did practically every other European group they brought over to serve as auxiliaries. In the last century thousands of Italian ex-PoW settled here after WWII, plus the Windrush West Indian immigrations of the 50's, the Indian sub continent immigrations of the 70's and 80's, and a million smaller family sized immigrations from all over Europe on a pretty constant basis from the year dot (including, apparently, your ancestor the Amesbury Archer).
So when you say 'all of our ancestors' are our immigrant populations from the last few thousand years included? Or do you mean the white supposedly Anglo Saxon population from Schleswig Holstein region? Or perhaps the Normans, who arrived from Norway, via Frannce?
It just that if you are limiting your definition of 'our' to Btitons who can trace their ancestry to the Bronze Age and beyond, then good luck - there are almost certainly a great deal of us - but without large scale genetic testing (and to put the cat amongst the pigeons, possibly even with genetic testing) you aren't going to find us. And even if you do, you still can't equate your own essentially modern belief system to whatever your ancestors believe in. I'm actually in favour or responsible reburial, not out of any religious belief - I don't have any - but out of respect, and if it does go ahead on any scale, I would expect a neutral service, or even more respectful, no service at all.
Or perhaps you meant 'all our ancestors' in a more encompassing fashion, including the whole brotherhood of man, in which case, are you going to try to get mummies sent home too?
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10th February 2009, 12:31 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Digitaldigging
Hi Oddie - I don't go for this 'all of our ancestors' argument. Even kicking out the old Iron Age invasion hypotheses we know that the Romans inter-married with Britons, as did practically every other European group they brought over to serve as auxiliaries. In the last century thousands of Italian ex-PoW settled here after WWII, plus the Windrush West Indian immigrations of the 50's, the Indian sub continent immigrations of the 70's and 80's, and a million smaller family sized immigrations from all over Europe on a pretty constant basis from the year dot (including, apparently, your ancestor the Amesbury Archer).
So when you say 'all of our ancestors' are our immigrant populations from the last few thousand years included? Or do you mean the white supposedly Anglo Saxon population from Schleswig Holstein region? Or perhaps the Normans, who arrived from Norway, via Frannce?
It just that if you are limiting your definition of 'our' to Btitons who can trace their ancestry to the Bronze Age and beyond, then good luck - there are almost certainly a great deal of us - but without large scale genetic testing (and to put the cat amongst the pigeons, possibly even with genetic testing) you aren't going to find us. And even if you do, you still can't equate your own essentially modern belief system to whatever your ancestors believe in. I'm actually in favour or responsible reburial, not out of any religious belief - I don't have any - but out of respect, and if it does go ahead on any scale, I would expect a neutral service, or even more respectful, no service at all.
Or perhaps you meant 'all our ancestors' in a more encompassing fashion, including the whole brotherhood of man, in which case, are you going to try to get mummies sent home too?
Hi Digital
Do you also believe in the discard of artefacts? Do you believe that the paper archive from excavations should be recycled? Or do you think that as excavation only takes place as a last resort and is preservation by record that all information should be properly curated as the price today's society pays for archaeological intervention?
Steven
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10th February 2009, 01:32 PM
Hi all.
I speak for my ancestors. If you want to speak for your ancestors, that's fine by me. It's obvious to me that different views need to be expressed here in relation to OUR collective ancestors. You've had control over everyone's ancestors for a long time now. Time for Druids to have their say. Your respeonses are emotive (but this is forgivable, as death and remory are emotive subjects), and ill considered (unprofessional). If you read Council's request for reburial at avebury, you will notice that we suggest a balanced view to be considered between science and spiritual / ethical beliefs. I see no such grace in arguemnts on this blog site. Shame on you.
References to voyeurs in museums are taken from Shanks and Tilly who designed post processualism at Cambridge and suggest the past is viewed by the present, judged and condemed without a fair hearing. Time for this to stop. Time for you to consider other world views. Time to stop fearing co-operation and compassion. Time for a bit of humility folks.
If you want to attack anyone for daring to suggest reburial, I suggest you approach the Christian Church who successfully pressed for the manditory reburial of all remains excavated from Christian burial grounds. I guess you won't do this, and it is not unreasonable to expect equal treatment for our requests for reburial of our ancient dead
Paul Davies
Reburial Officer
Council of British Druid Orders
Oddie
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10th February 2009, 01:54 PM
Which Council is this then oddie? Is it the one with thousands of members which is in favour of excavation? The one you aparrently left in 2006? The one discussed here?
http://www.bajr.org/BAJRForum/topic.asp?...hichpage=3
How many members does your "cobdo" represent? A dozen? Two dozen? If you can't convince the pagan mainstream, best of luck convincing EH/NT.
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10th February 2009, 01:59 PM
Sorry Oddie, but doesn't the Christian Church at least have the legitimacy of continuity of belief with remains from Christian burial grounds? They can quite legitimately claim to continue the practices and hold sacred the beliefs the dead people followed, and therefore have a right to be able and allowed to speak on their behalf now.
I'm afraid the Druids can't claim this. They have no idea what beliefs the people buried at Avebury originally held, or what rites (if any) were carried out prior to, during, or after their burial. None of this information has survived. Any modern-day version is simply a theatrical pastiche.
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10th February 2009, 02:08 PM
Quote:quote:I speak for my ancestors. If you want to speak for your ancestors, that's fine by me
Er... a lovely thought in principle but it all falls down because
1. your ancestor and my ancestor are probably the same person...
2. no-one knows what these ancestors [u]actually</u> believed - and to assume they believed in the same late modern neo-Paganism that you do is just as insulting to them (and to their non-Pagan descendants such as myself) as it is to assume they were Christian, Muslim or Hindu...
Your approach to claiming everyone's ancestors as your own sounds a bit like that of the Mormons (another bit of 19th century fictitious nonsense). And just as offensive frankly.
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10th February 2009, 02:44 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Oddie
...I suggest you approach the Christian Church who successfully pressed for the manditory reburial of all remains excavated from Christian burial grounds. I guess you won't do this, and it is not unreasonable to expect equal treatment for our requests for reburial of our ancient dead...
Sorry but you are totally incorrect concerning the automatic reburial of Christian remains. In instances where the Church of England has faculty jurisdiction ? effectively act as the planning authority they do require the reburial of remains. They are also the largest threat to human remains remaining in situ, but this is another story. The absolute, vast majority of Christian burials are no longer under the authority of the church as they are in cemeteries not managed by the faulty jurisdiction. I have been to visit numerous monks who now reside in boxes in secure museum stores. The church, in this case, has a direct, institutional link with the burial grounds it still manages through the faculty jurisdiction. In this case it is up to the church to manage these how they see fit.
Are you campaigning for faculty jurisdiction of all pagan burials?
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10th February 2009, 03:01 PM
Crator Kid says
"or what rites (if any) were carried out prior to, during, or after their burial."
I have to say I find this very dismissive of prehistoric scholarship. I would suggest we have a fair idea of the rites that took place.
Peter Wardle
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10th February 2009, 03:52 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by Oddie
Hi all.
I speak for my ancestors. If you want to speak for your ancestors, that's fine by me. It's obvious to me that different views need to be expressed here in relation to OUR collective ancestors. You've had control over everyone's ancestors for a long time now. Time for Druids to have their say. Your respeonses are emotive (but this is forgivable, as death and remory are emotive subjects), and ill considered (unprofessional). If you read Council's request for reburial at avebury, you will notice that we suggest a balanced view to be considered between science and spiritual / ethical beliefs. I see no such grace in arguemnts on this blog site. Shame on you.
References to voyeurs in museums are taken from Shanks and Tilly who designed post processualism at Cambridge and suggest the past is viewed by the present, judged and condemed without a fair hearing. Time for this to stop. Time for you to consider other world views. Time to stop fearing co-operation and compassion. Time for a bit of humility folks.
If you want to attack anyone for daring to suggest reburial, I suggest you approach the Christian Church who successfully pressed for the manditory reburial of all remains excavated from Christian burial grounds. I guess you won't do this, and it is not unreasonable to expect equal treatment for our requests for reburial of our ancient dead
Paul Davies
Reburial Officer
Council of British Druid Orders
Oddie
Hi
No you don't speak for the ancestors, that's my point. You CLAIM to speak for them, they haven't appointed you. You seem incapable of recognising that you have no mandate from them and cannot accept that in fact you speak only for yourself and YOUR views, you have to make a huge number of assumptions to take any other stance. Its fine to have a faith based (or even humaniatian) stance about reburial but making exagerated claims that you represent the ancestors is just silly.
When you say unprofessional do you mean my comments were contrary to professional standards? Hmmm...interesting I consider that they are based on professional opinion added to a sarcastic personality mixed with an individual concern over your motives. This is quite different from your comments which use a religious bias and false sometimes contradictory statements. Do you really consider your statements to have grace? I have read the request and no other option except reburial is offered and indeed despite saying that discussion is needed the request condemns any form of retention and shuts down any further debate by saying potential research techniques are an unconvincing argument for retention. It conveniently ignores future funding potential for already tried and tested techniques above and beyond the initial project budget!
You didn't quote S & T, you stated an opinion, so backtracking now to try and academically legitimise a bigoted statement doesn't cut it with me.
As historic building points out you are just plain WRONG about mandatory burial of christains, its not true! The guidelines clearly state that when human remains have future research potential "deposition in a suitable holding institution should be arranged". What you seem to actually be doing is just attacking the christian church because you appear to believe we are all in thrall to the church and scared of saying anything against them. Well as I have made churches deal properly with their buried parishioners and indeed (advised and gained) refusal of planning permission for development of a church on archaeological/human remains issues I can disabuse you of this notion.
Steven
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11th February 2009, 12:54 AM
Hi Steven
"Do you also believe in the discard of artefacts? Do you believe that the paper archive from excavations should be recycled? Or do you think that as excavation only takes place as a last resort and is preservation by record that all information should be properly curated as the price today's society pays for archaeological intervention?
Steven"
Do you also believe in the discard of artefacts? No.
Do you believe that the paper archive from excavations should be recycled? No - it should be digitised and put online for all to see and use.
Or do you think that as excavation only takes place as a last resort and is preservation by record that all information should be properly curated as the price today's society pays for archaeological intervention? Definately.
Could you tell me how these answers exclude the notion of responsible reburial?
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