Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2004
14th February 2009, 06:47 PM
is a bone a person? discuss? is a person from what is now Switzerland more aptly buried in the land of birth or the land of death? Where did they want to be buried? and what ceremony was performed? words spoken.
You can show respect for the remains AND the person
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2009
14th February 2009, 08:01 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host
is a bone a person? discuss?
If Human then it is part of a person Yes
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host
is a person from what is now Switzerland more aptly buried in the land of birth or the land of death? Where did they want to be buried? and what ceremony was performed? words spoken.
You can show respect for the remains AND the person
I think that the bones and the person are still inextricably linked after death until such time those bones turn to dust and rejoin the matter from which we all undoubtedly came and will return to once more,
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Jul 2008
14th February 2009, 08:18 PM
"is a bone a person? discuss?"
"If Human then it is part of a person Yes"
And if it is 99% human?
Serious queston BTW
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2004
14th February 2009, 08:21 PM
so, atoms and dust are not a person then? but if you have enough of it... it is a person (or a part of a person) oh... but bones are part of a person... at what point does a 'person' become small enough to not matter? ash? how much ash do you need? 3 grains? 5... how much until it becomes enough of a person to be a 'person'
Before we go further... I am a pagan two... I am a religion of one... I celebrate certain festivals with others... but in the main I keep my religion to meyself.. after all... its personal.. and I don't claim to know the beliefs of others who have been long dead.. I treat burials with respect, but I know a bone when I see one.. and it ain't a person any more.. they is long gone (well I hope so .... or I am in for deep doo doo when I die!) When I die... I really don't know what happens next, but I do know I am made of atoms.. they have been other things and will be again... and even during my life my atoms are constantly wandering off and joining (according to my waistline, there are more atoms than before)
At the end of it all, the big joke which you should understand... as a pagan.. is it is just that... a joke... we live... e get desperately worries about things then we die.. and in 100,000 years ... nobody will care... a glacier will grind us to nothing... tough... the Goddess / Earth really does not care... thats why I love her!
My bones.. I am just borrowing them!
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2009
14th February 2009, 09:10 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host
so, atoms and dust are not a person then? but if you have enough of it... it is a person (or a part of a person) oh... but bones are part of a person... at what point does a 'person' become small enough to not matter? ash? how much ash do you need? 3 grains? 5... how much until it becomes enough of a person to be a 'person'
Before we go further... I am a pagan two... I am a religion of one... I celebrate certain festivals with others... but in the main I keep my religion to meyself.. after all... its personal.. and I don't claim to know the beliefs of others who have been long dead.. I treat burials with respect, but I know a bone when I see one.. and it ain't a person any more.. they is long gone (well I hope so .... or I am in for deep doo doo when I die!) When I die... I really don't know what happens next, but I do know I am made of atoms.. they have been other things and will be again... and even during my life my atoms are constantly wandering off and joining (according to my waistline, there are more atoms than before)
At the end of it all, the big joke which you should understand... as a pagan.. is it is just that... a joke... we live... e get desperately worries about things then we die.. and in 100,000 years ... nobody will care... a glacier will grind us to nothing... tough... the Goddess / Earth really does not care... thats why I love her!
My bones.. I am just borrowing them!
As a pagan do you also believe in the re-incarnation or continuance of awareness of that which is the very essence of our spirit after death, which we cannot simply define as atoms?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2004
15th February 2009, 11:40 AM
Life is not defined by 'a person' a specific conciousness it just is. If you want to be deep about it... which one of my soul has the most rights? the David Connolly of now? the Ugg the Barbarian from 100000BC? the proto mammal? the tree in the Cretaceous? it just is... there is no individual...
I am... I will one day not be.... it is all one... changing ... one day a tree next a rock.. the 'me' is here now' I am happy that 'I' am... but when 'I' am gone... I will not matter any more... I will not be drinking mead in a fantasy hall.. ritual is for those who deal with loss.. the bones, the bits of deadness, matter only to them.
I as an archaeologist can respect the ritual, but learn from the bits, and thus share that. I quite fancy having my bones on display... after all, I ain't gonna be too worried about it
I intend to have an inscription saying... "Learn from my bones ... I'm an archaeologist too"
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2009
15th February 2009, 12:15 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host
Life is not defined by 'a person' a specific conciousness it just is. If you want to be deep about it... which one of my soul has the most rights? the David Connolly of now? the Ugg the Barbarian from 100000BC? the proto mammal? the tree in the Cretaceous? it just is... there is no individual...
I am... I will one day not be.... it is all one... changing ... one day a tree next a rock.. the 'me' is here now' I am happy that 'I' am... but when 'I' am gone... I will not matter any more... I will not be drinking mead in a fantasy hall.. ritual is for those who deal with loss.. the bones, the bits of deadness, matter only to them.
I as an archaeologist can respect the ritual, but learn from the bits, and thus share that. I quite fancy having my bones on display... after all, I ain't gonna be too worried about it
I intend to have an inscription saying... "Learn from my bones ... I'm an archaeologist too"
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
That is the wonderful but sometimes frustrating thing about life, that we all have differing opinions about certain subjects, as long as we are not to righteous and extreme in forcing our opinions down someone else's throat without consideration for their valid point of view, life is a learning proses after all.
I for one distinguish between mere atoms that reform in to other matter and that of the conscious metaphysical "spirit" that is fully aware of its existence, and is ever present to those who are naturally attuned, It is hard to explain to those who have not experienced a deep spiritual connection to our ancestors and the land.
Arddhu /|\
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2004
15th February 2009, 01:12 PM
conscious metaphysical "spirit" will not mind the pyhsical atoms being looked at though will it? after all, the 'spirit' is not the body... the body is not really that important in the long run.. whether I am eaten by a shark or buried with reverence.. The ritual act is for those who are not 'dead' when they are gone.. who exactly do we respect.? Fortunately we do respect, and it is possible to respect and learn at the same time. To move into the problems of ancestor? In Pre Pottery Neolithic buildings you often find a skull buried in the floor, sometimes even visible... now does that mean they respected the dead? or that they hated grand dad they like to kick his head OR that they saw it as purely functional, a handy polishing stand? How you you rebury this person? what ceremony would you carry out? Similarly with Skytians, I take it that the sacricicing of maidens and impaling horses and riders would be out? I sometimes often wonder as I dig a skeleton (for that is all I am digging - a pile of bones) "Am I treating you with more respect than you would have deserved when you were alive?" Perhaps you were evil incarnate.. hmmm... bag and tag... humans make me laugh in as much as we are the only animal that gives a damn about death.. animals seem to metaphorically shrug and move on... I have yet to see a group of cats gather respectfully at the side of a fallen companion... indeed I know what they would do given a choice between me and a packet of Whiskas..
Live life... as tommorrow you may be dead.
nice to have an existential discussion on BAJR
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2008
15th February 2009, 01:53 PM
"Humans make me laugh in as much as we are the only animal that gives a damn about death...animals seem to metaphorically shrug and move on"
What about the well-documented examples of how elephants seem to show such reverance over the bones of other elephants? they will ignore the bones of other animals, but will gather round the bones of their own species.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2004
15th February 2009, 03:14 PM
I though about that... just as the seeming love of some birds for each other. But do you see a ritual? DO you see an attempt to mark the passing with a monument? or are we anthropomorphising the action.. ? the key to your statement is the word 'seem' with humans they 'do' Does that mean we should remove elephants from museums as well
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
