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17th February 2009, 12:43 PM
The key question to me seems to be: how can modern day pagans claim to respect the past pagans wishes, when no-one has much idea what they were.
Ancient writing on the druids were sketchy at best and invariably writern by Romans with an agenda. Current day paganism is an entirely modern construct re-creating an ancient religion which in all likelyhood is as similar to the original, as a medieval fair is to the War or the Roses.
Paganism has a much right to exist as any other religion but it seems to me that the wish to influance archaeology regarding the actual past of paganism is equivilant to whitewashing the past, in order to make the modern day fascimile more acceptable.
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17th February 2009, 02:12 PM
This is a bit of a p*ss-take (don't take it seriously)
Dear Druids
When I finally shuffle of this mortal coil and go on up to the great archaeological lecture theatre in the sky, I would like to donate my body to your gods. In return, I would like you to do the following with my body:
Please wrap me in finest silk, complete with gold embroidery and opal/emerald fittings (in life I may not have had such an item, but in death I think I damn-well deserve one). I?d also like some form of burial mask? made out of Lignum vitae. Bury my body (with personal effects, gold and/or platinum offerings) in non-consecrated ground, preferably in the crouched position and with me clutching a bottle of Talisker. (Of course, the gold/platinum offerings must be of the finest quality? from Debeer?s and not GemsTV or QVC).
During the burial ceremony, I?d like lots of people moaning and thrashing about, as if in paroxysms of grief and/or sexual frenzy. Furthermore, I?d like ?Stand and Deliver? (Adam and The Ants) to be played continuously (ad naseum)? this will help in establishing the right pitch for the moaning and thrashing.
After a few months, I?d like my body to be exhumed (at your cost). Of course, I will have to be treated with full respect and due reverence (and of course, I?d expect further moaning and thrashing during the exhumation rite). I would at this point I?d like the Talisker to be taken from me, opened and then poured over my exhumed body.
I would then like to be placed on an excarnation platform (built from finest cedar) for my bones to be scattered to the four winds and for animals to feast on my rotting flesh. After a short while (say two weeks), I?d like someone appointed with such matters (they must be fully qualified) to collect up my bones and remnant flesh and place me in a cremation pit. I?d then like to be cremated using sandalwood and bog myrtle chippings. Music for this process must be ?Disco Inferno? (Cyndi Lauper version). No thrashing or moaning needed at this juncture... the ceremony has to be done with solemnity and quietitude.
My ashes should then be placed in an original Bronze Age cremation vessel - along with my retrieved personal effects, gold/platinum offerings and further grave goodies. The grave goods must include an ovate Acheulian hand axe, a Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican obsidian arrowhead and a bottle of Ardbeg Uigeadail malt. If a suitable Bronze Age cremation vessel can not be found, a passable Black Attic ware crater (original, mind!) will suffice. I would then like my cremated remains and pot to buried at sea? and I mean ?Buried at Sea?. I want a professional scuba diving unit to actually dig a grave for me beyond the 12 mile limit. Not just chucked over board like any-old scoundrel. During the burial, I?d like the scuba divers to hum Dixie. If the divers want to thrash and moan as well, that is up to them (would be nice though). NB I am fully aware that the Druidic Health and Safety Executive would need to do a risk assessment first... at 100m below sea level, it may be diffuclt to tell the difference between mere thrashing about and the bends.
Finally, I?d like a granite marker stone (complete with runic inscriptions saying ?Gorilla was such a nice chap?, ?have a great afterlife Gorilla old bean? and the like) placed 0.73m directly eastnortheast of my grave.
These are my final wishes? they are my funeral rites and my beliefs. It's my parting and I'll die how I want to.
Is that all too much to ask? At least in doing all this, you can be sure that no archaeologist will ever dig me up! Furthermore, you won?t have to rebury me!
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17th February 2009, 02:23 PM
Let's hope they don't build an offshore windfarm on top of you!
?He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself?
Chinese Proverb
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17th February 2009, 06:48 PM
The search for terrestrial intelligence continues it would seem!
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17th February 2009, 08:29 PM
I get it now.... all we need are druids who are atuned to the past... could you find the burials first then... given your special powers? or do you want to wait till we find them?
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
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18th February 2009, 11:12 AM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host
I get it now.... all we need are druids who are atuned to the past... could you find the burials first then... given your special powers? or do you want to wait till we find them?
We are not against archeology in principal, we are against the disrespect and desecration of OUR combined heritage, I'm shore If most of you had your way we would all be of to the recycling plant to be composted when we pop our clogs, that actually doesn't sound like a bad idea, at least our mortal remains we would be at one with and nourishing the earth once more and they would not be disrespected by being artificially and unwillingly preserved in a naturless box!
And as for those of you who think that Paganism is a modern day re-creation based on the little knowledge we have of the past I would ardently disagree, not all the old ways where eradicated by the wonderful x-tian religion as they would have you believe, I for one who also practice traditional witchcraft can trace the unwritten teachings (for obvious reasons) to before recorded history, And as for Druidry many of us who believe in reincarnation and a "spiritual" connection to our Druidic ancestors are in no doubt of our understanding of the old ways, as I have said above we do not need the "matter" which you dig from the ground or writings to understand our connection with the past.
Arddhu
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18th February 2009, 07:30 PM
How do you trace an unwritten record?
May help my old supervisors hunt down my missing context sheets.
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18th February 2009, 07:48 PM
I remain deeply concerned that much academic reaction to this reburial request is being dismissed on the basis of the size of a group. Doesn't matter how big or small the group is, or even if the idea of reburial was 'borrowed' from the other side of the world. While it my belief many people agree with the idea of reburial, try to remember that small ideas are put together from many different sources, froim which great oaks grow. This is such an acorn. It?s just a matter of time really?
Please try to remember I am also an archaeologist but strongly favour reburial in a way that would mirror the wishes of the prehistoric tribal people of Avebury. Just look at these graves ? look at the archaeology ? they were final statements of commemoration and should be respected as so. Excavation without consideration is not too much to ask surely?
Finally, decisions on reburial/retention must be made without prejudice. Anything else just will not do. Amid the more sensible discussions here (and on other sites) are extreme examples of intolerance that may also be considered injustice.
Paul Davies /|\
Reburial Officer
Council of British Druid Orders
Oddie
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18th February 2009, 08:19 PM
Please try to remember I am also an archaeologist but strongly favour reburial in a way that would mirror the wishes of the prehistoric tribal people of Avebury. Just look at these graves ? look at the archaeology ? they were final statements of commemoration and should be respected as so. Excavation without consideration is not too much to ask surely?
at last something worth debating... the nature of our work and the responsibilities it covers.. as dirty dave has posted. strip away our present day beliefs.. and consider those of the past... even if it is as simple as why we have a right to move burials.... or the concept of reburial.. (no ceremonies please)
?When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.?
William Blake
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18th February 2009, 10:17 PM
Quote:quote:Originally posted by andy.bicket
How do you trace an unwritten record?
May help my old supervisors hunt down my missing context sheets.
Maybe I could have worded that a bit better, Through the oral tradition of teachings past from generation to generation.
Something else I would like to throw in to the 'pot' as it were,
there is talk behind the scene's about the creation of a specially designed building that could hold the disputed remains, which would be a realistic compromise, It would give the remains the due respect they deserve, and would not be as controversial as total reburial, If this comes to fruition I would personally like the building to be in the guise of a neolithic long barrow, which would be secure & accessible, with more respectful guidelines in place.
