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New name for the IFA...
#31
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

It is true what Old Girls says... - However (you knew it was coming)

Standards and Guidance ....

These are not definitive... they are ... Guidance. ei up for interpretation and argument (and I have had such things, where the Guidance is interpreted in different ways) --- unlike this document which is : Dutch Archaeology Quality Standard (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/dspace/.../1887/9858)

RAOs (as you say... not perfect... and to some RAOs it is just because, rather than a belief...

Groups... yup, we have groups... but we could have groups without the IFA... same goes for publications... etc etc...


CWPA - great... but again, this is not just the IFA... and what has actually been achieved... there are words about
monitoring health and safety issues
OR
long running issue of pay and conditions

But what has actually, physically been achieved... (the long running pay and conditions thing - we are all involved in that)

What I was looking for was hard solid achievements... ie

19xx... created a universally accepted pay structure

199x ... ensured that a clear career progression was in place (with defined roles, duties etc)

200x ... etc etc

This is the sort of meat people want to know... seeing that joining is worth it... for them, the profession and the general heritage industry..

No offense to working parties (hey I was on them too) but soon after a working party finishes... there should be a result.


"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers

S&G - There are two parts, standard and guidance. There is a standard and then guidance on how that applies. Plus (and you knew I would say it back }Smile) they only apply to members. (Which is why the code of conduct is proposed to be changed from 'the archaeologist' to 'the member' in the latest AGM papers) And yes, they are open to interpretation. But that should be the interpretation of the whole membership. If there are problems with some of them, perhaps there should be a carefully worded amendment prepared? And if someone who isn't a member wants to suggest something, I'm sure those that are would consider putting it forward!

RAO - was set up originally to be a peer reviewed/peer pressure system with support and assitance to help organisations improve. It may have been naive to assume the best of motives rather than the worst, but some organisations (particularly then) are run by people who are archaeologsts first and managers/accountants/HR people second. When the system was first set up, the biggest hurdle that had to be got over was the complete paranoia on the part of most archaeologists about anyone else 'stealing' their designs/recording systems etc! the RAOs have actually worked hard to improve the overall standard of archaeological work and pay and conditions etc, even though this has sailed a bit close to the wind with the overall remit of the group! Remeber, no organisation HAS to be an RAO.

True on groups etc, but the whole membership of IFA funds these groups, not just the group itself. And I didn't see many of them before hand......

CWPA - true, many things have been done in co-operation..... er, just how is that not a good thing?

On the specific things you mention, like I've said before, IFA is not a trade union. I can remember them talking about facilitating contact between SCAUM and Prospect quite a few years ago. IFA got it started, handed it over..... dead. At least they tried and keep trying!

It sounds like, on the whole, its the fact that it takes too long for working parties etc to report and then the organisation to act that many people find frustrating, so maybe that's why those of us that are a bit older (!) are slightly more positive? I have seen major improvements in the last 20 years. e.g. APPAG (all party parliamentary action group) - no-one would ever have thought 20 years ago that archaeology would warrant a parliamentary group.

Another example - National Occupational Standards. I'll be honest, I was involved in one of the pilot studies. I thought this one had died and I also struggled to see how (other than in a very limited sense) these were going to be of use to archaeologists. But now they are informing peoples career development, assisting in moving IFAs Validation Committee towards a more competence based system and allowing access to training and funding that wasn't there before.

Now, to be fair, these are just off the top of my head and I'm sure there are many better examples of this. The biggest problem is trying to get across that if this is a 'what's in it for me presonally right now' question, then you're going to get a better answer from a trade union. But a professional body is something different.
Reply
#32
Thanks Oldgirl... in part I am playing devils advocate... }Smile

What is needed is that the outreach is more... er... outreachy

Telling people the real benefits... the real success stories.. the absolutes and realities.

often we hear (often too late - which is why it was a GOOD thing.. that the IFA asked for input from BAJRites about the benchmarking) about vague things that in the main don't mean anything to us... unless you really know about it... or find out that another Profiling the profession has indeed found that the pay is still poor...

Some real, positive and open input from the IFA would be a useful thing... like me... you need a thick skin (hey I get a kicking as well - and why not) and often I hear about behind the scenes stuff.. which is less than constructive.

being able to take it on the chin... agree with some bits and disagree with others ... answering questions... telling people... thats what we want to see.

ps... still waiting to har anything about Tax or accomodation :face-huh:

thanks Oldgirl



"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Reply
#33
Dear Hosty,

I think you are too dismissive of some of the IFA's achievements as identified by Oldgirl.

Standards and Guidance - They are not perfect, but they do represent a substantial achievement. They give something for curators and consultants to quote in specs, and they were not easy to do. For all the moaning about the standard of archaeological work, I don't see anyone else even trying to define a standard. And the standards are continuously under review and get updated from time to time, so if you don't think they are good enough there is the opportunity to get involved in making them better.

Code of Conduct - you rather skipped over this one, but again it puts something in place that enables archaeologists to be held to account, if used properly.

RAOs - I think Oldgirl underplayed this one too. The main point of the RAO system is that it makes organisations accountable and subject to the disciplinary system, rather than just individuals.

CWPA - its documents have often been produced in collaboration with others, but often as a result of an IFA initiative. I believe the ICE Contract, for one, is a significant achievement that makes archaeological companies safer in undertaking contracts. Again, it was not easy, but it was worth doing.

Groups - don't have much to say on this, I am afraid, as I haven't been involved much.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished
Reply
#34
Not so much dismissive - more wanting to see.. written down.. someting like what you and OG have done...

(that said... even you have to add elements such as... *They are not perfect* ... * if used properly.* etc... but at last we are seeing hard evidence of work done... people should not have to guess or search for what is happening... it should be spelt out... when you look at the IFA website itself.. this is what it lists as benefits...

It acts in support of its members, works to improve pay and conditions, represents the interests of archaeology and archaeologists to government, policy makers and industry, keeps you up to date on developments in archaeological practice, sets standards and issues guidelines, promotes and organises training, improves individual career prospects, provides a wide range of membership services

what I want to know is HOW.. and what are the results

The membership services

Quote:quote:invaluable free weekly Jobs Information Service bulletin
free publications:
our topical magazine, The Archaeologist (four times a year)
Yearbook and directory of members, an incomparable reference book and contact list of archaeologists
papers on specialist professional topics
standards and guidance leaflets
free fortnightly e-newsletter, the Heritage Link Update
discounted entry to our Annual Conference, the premier archaeological conference in the UK, and other events
opportunities to participate on Council and committees
free membership of area and special interest groups
discounts on insurance, legal advice and health care
an arbitration service
discounts with some publishers
use of the Society of Antiquarians of London library
a membership card and certificate
corporate members have the right to use postnominals (PIFA, AIFA, MIFA), to vote at meetings and the AGM, to stand for Council and be involved with all of our committees
membership is increasingly used by employers in recruitment and grading of staff and in determining rates of pay

These benefits can also be found elsewhere, without being a member… and things like discount on insurance? Well… not according to the insurance company itself.. who are helping to write a guide with BAJR about what archaeologists need, why, and how…. Discounted entry to your own conference (or in other words.. people who come who are not members pay more) Yearbook… an incomparable reference book? (unless you compare it with a similar directory) Free membership of your own groups (eh??) arbitration service ( or ACAS) a membership card (perhaps a free secret codebook and badge as extra) You can stand for council ? (er.. is that a benefit.. you can be part of the organisation you are already part of?)
papers on specialist professional topics (very good they are too… but also available elsewhere) free fortnightly e-newsletter, the Heritage Link Update (never saw it when I was a member) use of the Society of Antiquarians of London library
(if you are in London) membership is increasingly used by employers in recruitment and grading of staff and in determining rates of pay ( as are BAJR grades) etc…

Don’t knock it… there is some great stuff there… but here are benefits for RIBA

As a member of the RIBA, you will enjoy a wealth of benefits. From specialist support and information (including access to the world's finest source of architectural data at the British Architectural Library), to a year-round diary of lectures and social and cultural events, advice on legal matters, pensions, insurance, training, recruitment, CPD and more… it's no wonder RIBA membership is fast becoming indispensable to those connected with the profession.

And talking to a friend who is in RIBA.. the personal benefit outways the cost… but like the IFA it is not about what the person can get.. it is about the profession as a whole.. and here perhaps the IFA are well placed to act as the voice --- so lets hear it.

ps... as to "anyone else even trying to define a standard" I refer the honourable gentleman to the BAJR 07 conference which looked at just that... AND tried to get people to look at the Dutch example... hard standards...

I agree with the concept of the IFA... ... been there... done it... offered opinions... saw what I saw... some good people... some problems ... (me being one I freely admit) change does not happen overnight, but neither does it take decades.

I would just like the IFA to come out and get people excited about joining… they don’t have to be defensive.. and BAJR is not always knocking them.. but often highlights issues.. which need answered…


"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Reply
#35
Bring back fun I say!

"I don't have an archaeological imagination.."
Borekickers
Reply
#36
I have to say that I don't really care what the IFA calls itself, I would still rather be a member and feel I have a right to complain from the inside than not and inaffectually complain from the outside. It's a bit like complaining about the government and not bothering to vote (although granted, you don't have to pay to vote, I'm surprised 'they' haven't come up with a way to change that!)

Anyone who was put off by the term 'field' as being inappropriate for whatever reason should probably get out more (although I don't necessarily mean into 'the field').

There are plenty of other reasons to be put off - the corporate level of membership is ridiculously expensive considering what archaeologists get paid, the numbers of people who joined up in the early days as MIFAs when the criteria were, shall we say, a little less well defined etc etc. Whether it actually does anything useful for your career is another matter... as has been stated on this thread already, some more tangible benefits would be nice.
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#37
I think the move away from "Field" is partly to do with being more inclusive, as other posters have said. I reckon archaeology in the UK can get quite snobbish about what it is to be an archaeologist, with those engaged in fieldwork considering themselves to be "real" archaeologists and everyone else being either subservient or irrelevant in terms of the wider discipline.
It's an observation based on my experience in academia, commercial units and also govt, so it would be interesting to see if others agree.
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#38
Posted by BAJR:
Quote:quoteBig Grinon’t knock it… there is some great stuff there… but here are benefits for RIBA

As a member of the RIBA, you will enjoy a wealth of benefits. From specialist support and information (including access to the world's finest source of architectural data at the British Architectural Library), to a year-round diary of lectures and social and cultural events, advice on legal matters, pensions, insurance, training, recruitment, CPD and more… it's no wonder RIBA membership is fast becoming indispensable to those connected with the profession.
All very well, but then RIBA has been established for 174 years, as opposed to the IFA's 20 or so; it has 40,500 subcription-paying members, to the IFA's 2,500 or so, all from a higher-earning profession than archaeology; and it has 170 staff, to the IFA's 13. It's no wonder they can do more for their members. And yet, the very wording of the piece you quote admits that "RIBA membership is fast becoming indispensable to those connected with the profession" - i.e., after 174 years it still isn't actually indispensable yet.

As it happens, several members of my family are architects, and I can tell you that they don't always have any more good words for it than many archaeologists have for IFA.

I say this not to knock RIBA, but just to point out that all is not necessarily rosy in other professional bodies, and also that there really isn't a fair comparison between IFA and RIBA.

Quote:quote:And talking to a friend who is in RIBA.. the personal benefit outways the cost…
Possibly true, but then architects tend to earn a lot more than archaeologists, so cost is less of an issue for them.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished
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#39
A better, and fairer comparison to the IFA is the IHBC who broadly offer the same 'service' as the IFA. Now if we all had to be in the IFA to call ourselves archaeologists then it would be a fair comparison to the RIBA who can prosecute people for calling themselves architects. http://www.arb.org.uk/regulation/regulat...itle.shtml
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#40
quote:
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And talking to a friend who is in RIBA.. the personal benefit outways the cost…
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And am I also right in saying that RIBA is a chartered institute?

[:I] If I'm not right!

Don't worry Hosty, I have to admit that your questions made me think a bit about the IFA and why I am supportive of it (certainly more supportive than I was before I joined....). I genuinely believe that archaeology would have been in a far worse position by now without the IFA. Bear in mind, also, that it has to aspire to represent all archaeologists (I will NOT use the phrase 'heritage environmentists'), not just those whose voices we hear on these pages. We have discussed before the differences between people who often post here and (for example) Britarch, try getting those to agree on anything!

It is also important to point out that many people posting here are professional archaeologists (from the point of view that we are paid for doing it), but it has only been in the latter part of its life that IFA has had a majority of members who would consider themselves in that category. The Standards and Guidance and Code of Conduct have been set up to cover 'amateur' individuals and groups as well, many of whom are not operating within the 'quality control system' of the planning process. Their needs, aspirations and opinions also have to be taken into account.
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