don't know whether to laugh or cry....

[Unitof1]

I say old chap

[BAJR]

jesus..that was quick..subtle editing there Hostie....sorry...just get so angry....

that me that is.. been out all day... just keeping my eye in

and Unit... if you know of another way... do tell... until then... this is the way

[trainedchimp]

This sounds worth getting properly angry about to me...

[Unitof1]

grindlecat if you want a shoulder to cry on, you are welcome to come and drink wine at my place, beware theres a bit of irish indian hungaryian nigerian english norman french in the mix and the the mother of my childrem is ex scot and the dogs a jack russel which is not a pedigree and so not a mongral and we dont know if he is to big or small but he does live for crumbs

and the chickens white because she is the sole survivor of a 13 kill fox attack

[BAJR]

I will stand up and say that where grindlecat failed is in the feeling that you can just walk into a bar, shout at everyone... and then growl and say... its not my fault I'm angry. Excellent timing where you have not thought through the concept that the reason you can vent spleen like this is because I have taken the time and trouble, made the effort to build this... I don't like people stomping in and kicking over the furniture just because their life is crap.. I will be phoning you to have a chat.

As Amiable said, you have many valid points, but are lost in abuse, violence and general rant. (perhaps thats how you prefer to speak?)

The idea of armed archaeologists storming the halls of (some unspecified archaeological unit) may be a waking dream... but it is just that... due to the fact that we live in 21st century BRitian (I am Scottish by the way... can I join the english on being small minded please) and that is fantasy.

reality check : change will come through getting angry enough that you do something...

Drunk on Aldi wine... step one
Doing something constructive ... step two

[grindlecat]

sure, call me BAJR...thats why i mailed you my own number, but i doubt if i'll post here again really...yeah, its great you set this up for the venting of spleen...i've vented me spleen on some other sites as well, but for some un accountable reason i get kicked off ! cant imagine why...
BUT, what has it achieved...pay and conditions have gone down in this country in the last 5 years....and I do belong to a Union and it has never done me a bit of good in any work related situation, however i remain a committed Unionist...
i think its ok to feel angry about this and i did say i had drink taken..
and there was nothing thinly vieled about anything. I've put up with enough 'carp' in me life without having to take it from 'colleagues', especially as i suspect none of you have looked down the wrong end of a British army rifle or been fire-bombed and beaten by people who call themselves English...ok?
Beamish Mary..i shall look for it, next time i can actually afford to go into a pub [kicking the chairs and ranting, no doubt...]

[BAJR]

Left this up, to highlight the futility of the rant which leads nowhere. YEs I will be calling you, after all thats why you gave me your number..
Yes I bet you get kicked off forums, for speaking your mind (perhaps without listening to others... a terrible side affect of being so angry that you go deaf.
threats either thinly veiled or not are unacceptable. I don't really care how angry you are or whether you have spent your life looking down the barrel of a gun.

i think its ok to feel angry about this and i did say i had drink taken..
and there was nothing thinly vieled about anything. I've put up with enough 'carp' in me life without having to take it from 'colleagues', especially as i suspect none of you have looked down the wrong end of a British army rifle or been fire-bombed and beaten by people who call themselves English...ok?

I guess your beef with english better include the scots as well.. being a unionist that may make sense..? and anyway, my brother (shock horror - little known facts) was there and shock horror, came back different. Have I experienced being vicimised for being scottish.. well of course I have... have english people been victimised and beated for being english? well er...duh.. yes.

Politics aye? armed struggle... I'm right -you are wrong... it is bullst and the last resort of people who have neither imagination not care.

I have tidied up the pub now, righted the chairs, cleared away the broken glass... the regulars look on, and say... well that changed the world didn't it... perfectly justified...

Blame... where does it point?

[vinnie0057]

Well, looks like we're all up shit creek. Totaly agree with everything you say. Have been on jobs myself where the lads who were employed to control traffic, change the traffic lights etc have been on twice my salary (no qualification nor degree required). So much for Gordon and that weasel Tony telling us that we should pay for our education as we can earn more with a degree; My Arse!!!!!!!!
It's also the only job i can remember where the pay never seems to go up. I arrived in Ireland some 6 yrs ago and my wages have remained exactly the same (though recently they have been reduced!!!).
It's no wonder that on the majority of excavs you will find that most of the field staff have little or no experience. Most of us "old gits" become disheartened, and bugger off to work in McDonald's (at least you get free food, the pay is the same and you don't have to sod about all day covered in shit, freezin' your cobblers off and, more often than not, getting little or no notice when your services are "no longer required".
In fact, on one job, the director called us halfway through a project to gauge our feelings on a pay cut, as the project manager had cocked-up the figures, so the company wouldn't make as much profit (forgot to mention that the brazen bastard had just bought a new car and bigger house!!!!). However, the most pathetic thing about it was the response from the staff. I immediately said that i wouldn't accept, and offered to leave. The rest of the "sheep" said nothing at the meeting, but in private started moaning about it (spineless goons!!!!!!!).
My neice has just started uni (archaeology), as she wants to join the ranks of the thousands of unwashed, underpaid, undervalued and disillusioned goons (myself included), who think that they are entering a noble and valued profession. Dream on, McDuff!!!!!!!!
Finally, the Bajr and IFA; many employers base their rates on the BAJR recommendations. These are scandalously low, but not surprising, as many members of both these bodies are also directors of Archaeo co's, so it wouldn't be in their interests to see wages going up.
But ultimately, the sad fact is-if one archaeo turns down a job due to low wages, there are at least 20 others that will accept it (bahhh, bahhhh!!!).
So if anyone reading this is studying archaeology, or thinking of doing it, i have a bit of advice for you-DON'T!!!!!!!!!
Oh yes, Unions. When i worked at MoLas, we were members of Unite and were awaiting the outcome of a pending pay increase. Following about 12 months or so of negotiations, we were finally awarded about ?1.90 pw. I almost went out and got legless, delirious fool that i was!!!!!! So much for unions.
Oh well, back to daytime tv crap until a decent offer comes up.

Right....is everybody paying attention?

This post will address a number of inter-related issues...

1. I've just ahd a call from a very nice guy at a midlands local authority unit offering me work. So good so far.
The pay was at the grade 2/3 level, so about ?300 approx [take home, after tax, about ?245 ish...]...very gratifying tom get an offer, after i cant recall how many applications...
BUT....they pay monthly, in arrears by a month, so effectively first pay in the bank after 8 weeks work...and when i asked about length of contract...
4 - 6 weeks, possibly a bit more. At least he was straight about that, as other units I've worked for in the last year back in the UK [after Ireland] have blatantly bullshitted about the amount of work available [ i wont name names but the units' name rhymes with '(EDIT)'.
And another BUT...when i asked about accommodation etc, he said, rather shamefacedly i thought, that the company had a 'house', with rooms at ?50 a week [taken direct from wages...]...
so, in effect, i could work for them, if i was happy not to get paid for 8 weeks for a start, and to loose ?50 a week, to pay THEM to work for them!

I actually almost felt sorry for him..he was direct and honest and clear with me, which as i say, is a rarity with companies in this country, in my experience and other posters, who may have followed what i write here, will realize how unusual it is for me to feel sympathy for any employers...

now, that means that at a take home pay of ?250 a week [minus another ?50], for possibly less than 6 weeks work. So i could be unemployed again before i even saw my first months wages...and i'd be homeless again if i moved for that job, as the accom. goes with the job...
so i'd need to keep my rent up on the place i have here in the North East...

he was a nice guy, as i say, and when i asked him how he thought i could afford to do that, he just said he was sorry [but he damn well knew what i meant] and that they'd had over 150 applications for that...

so...my point...

it doesn't matter what all this Union posturing and pontificating we do...the situation is shxx and will get worse, as i've said elsewhere.
Even if you're self employed, it'd still be really hard to do this...if you still live at 'home' and dont have to worry about keeping a home elsewhere running, it would still be really hard to do this.

So, i turned it down. He said they wanted people with my experience...so what?
When engineering companies pay more [and accom. ] for their basic labourers, let alone the skilled chippies, engineers, cable layers and pipe layers they employ, why should we be treated differently.
We are skilled, highly educated workers, yet get this shit all the time.

2. Now, some of you have commented on 'my attitude', in other threads....if you think my attitude is unreasonable, please explain why!

3. If you still live at home, as i say, then maybe this is ok for you, but, as a middle aged man, with a huge range of experience, a Masters degree and all that, supervisor and PO experience, why should i put up with this. Like i say, he was ok, and he knew what i was getting at with my questions.

4. I've put a bit more up on my profile, as i notice a few of you have looked at that...Drunky, Troll, Misty and 'amiable'....however, i tell you now...i will accept any kind of abuse on this Forum, but if you leave me any shxx on my Profile, please don't'(EDIT)'!

5. IT DOESNT MATTER what Union any of us join now. Even if the whole archaeology profession joined up it still won't make any difference. Archaeology is not a priority for any local council and private units DON'T GIVE A FLYING XXXX about thier field workers.

6. There was a comment about 'profits' on another thread...i've seen the cars company bosses drive and i see how they live, so don't tell me there's no profit being made! If these clowns that run units cant break even [sob], then maybe they should look at their own pay and perks before they start hitting us, as field workers.

7. Now, im sitting here holding me head in me hands and almost in tears...what the xxxx has happened to this profession? We're fxxxx and it will get worse!

8. I can make more doing spuds on the farm next door than i can in a profession i used to love...and not feel bitter and pissed off about it....
so i'll be one of the highest qualified farm albourers in the country...


and if anybody wants to make a comment about my 'attitude', '(EDIT)'

weeping now...xxxx this job!

[BAJR]

When i worked at MoLas, we were members of Unite

I thought that MOLAS was a Prospect Branch?

[kevin wooldridge]

MoLAS union is Prospect....

Re: Grindlecat's original post. If it is the local authority unit that I think it is....the situation could be improved quite a lot. The 'accomodation' on offer is actually hard-to-let council housing owned by the authority that is employing said archaeologists. I think that making a contribution is fair (see previous discussion on the English Heritage ?10 a week scheme), but the rent being asked by this authority could be negotiated down. (With 4 or 5 archaeologists sharing a house the combined rent per property is far in excess of that the local authority could reasonably expect for such properties.....). Again a good reason why a union might be able to intercede on behalf of the diggers....