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Druids request reburial of ancestral remains
#21
Of course, in many traditions (prehistoric, Christian and other) 'burial' through long-term storage in a standing structure is a perfectly acceptable form of burial, and therefore deposition of a human bone archive in a museum could be seen as a form of re-burial.

The objection could be twofold - that the building concerned is not explicitly religious in nature, and that the remains are accessible for scientific study and may therefore be disturbed after 'reburial'. However, the one thing we know for certain about any prehistoric burials is that we can't provide any burial facility that shares a religious affiliation with them. In addition, some burial traditions do allow for periodic removal and use of ancestral bones (e.g. in modern Madagascar).

So the answer is this - tell the 'druids' that the bones have all been given a respectful, secular reburial in the museum basement.

1man1desk

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#22
Lifted from BRITARCH.

"Hallo, a h-uile duine.

Yes, well, there were at least two posts in this thread that referred to CoBDO as "neo-druids" (I haven't read the entire thread yet, so if this is redundant, which I doubt very seriously, please accept my apologies). Sorry, but that ain't the case, folks. CoBDO members are, for the most part, "Meso-Druids," properly speaking (sometimes called "Druid Revivalists"). "Neo-Druids" are a whole 'nother animal. Then, of course, you also have Celtic Reconstructionists, Celtic Heathen Revivalists (not to be confused with "Druid Revivalists"), and Celtic Traditionalists (these latter three camps can probably be dubbed "Celticists," and are usually rather obviously different from Meso-Druids or Neo-Druids).

Of course, many of you will probably dismiss all of this attempt to make distinctions and happily brand all persons in the present day using the term "Druid" or "Draoidh" or "Draoi" or "Derwydd" or the like as "Neo-Druids," but that would be sublimely unfair (and likely to annoy several of us). It is true that the "Celticist" camps are primarily a phenomenon of the Celtic Diaspora, but there are a few groups in the UK and Ireland which would fall under that header. Nevertheless, most "Druid" groups in the UK and Ireland are in fact made up of "Meso-Druids."

"Meso-Druids" generally view their 300-year-old (or so) "tradition" as a philosophy that can be held by anyone of any Religion (as such, there are Christians, Buddhists, etc, among the membership of these Orders). Neo-Druids, on the other hand, are exclusively Neo-Pagans or New Agers (and while they may tend to universalism, they're not really as "open" as they like to pretend). Neither type of "Druid" is likely to be very concerned with historical accuracy in the use of the term "Druid" (or much else, really), and neither type is in any way the "inheritor" of pre-Christian Tradition.

Celtic Reconstructionists should probably be called "Modern Pagans" or (possibly) "Retro-Pagans," and (as their label implies) are concerned with "reconstructing" the religious aspects of a Celtic culture (or, in some cases, the religious aspects of all Celtic cultures). Celtic Traditionalists aren't really concerned with one Religion or another, but are instead concerned with a specific Celtic culture's cultural Tradition, but are typically Christians or Heathens (and a few of these groups may involve individuals who are called "Draoidhean," "Draoithe," "Derwyddion," etc, but most of the more well-known Celtic Traditionalist groups have issues with the concept of Priesthood, due in part to the influence of Protestant anti-clericalism). Celtic Heathen Revivalists (as the name implies) are Heathens (and take offense at being called "Neo-Pagan," since the approach and attitude are *significantly* different), usually focusing on an even more specific culture's cultural Tradition (i.e., you'll find, e.g., "Ivernian Heathen Revivalists," but the closest to that you'll find amongst the Traditionalists is "Gaelic Traditionalist" or *maybe* "Scottish Gaelic Traditionalist" and "Irish Gaelic Traditionalist"), but concerned with "reviving" pre-Anglo-Norman and pre-Christian aspects of that culture (whereas the Traditionalists stick to the cultural Tradition _as is_). At any rate, these three camps of "Celticists" tend to be much more concerned with historical accuracy (though you'll find individuals who claim to be "Celtic Reconstructionists" or "Celtic Traditionalists" or "Celtic Heathen Revivalists" who are not living up to the ideals of the movement in question; you will, of course, find poor examples of adherence to a standard in *any* Religion).

There's a *lot* more that goes into distinguishing one of these groups from another than what I've said here, but the point is that there are very real differences between these camps, and lumping the members of one camp into another camp ... well, just think how insensitive it would be to plaster "Reformed Jews" with the label "Chasidim" (or worse, to paint "Chasidim" with the name "Neo-Essenes").

Mise le meas, Croman mac Nessa"

So now we know (someone's already done the Judean People's Front Joke...and the People's Front of Judea).
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#23
Posted by Gog:
Quote:quote:Neither type of "Druid" [Meso-Druids or Neo-Druids] is likely to be very concerned with historical accuracy in the use of the term "Druid" (or much else, really), and neither type is in any way the "inheritor" of pre-Christian Tradition.
Would CoBDO agree that they are not "in any way the inheritor of pre-Christian tradition"? If so, on what basis can they apply for reburial of "Druid ancestral remains" (see the opening post on this thread)?



1man1desk

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#24
Thanks Gog for a timely reminder of why I never go on Britarch!

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#25
Britarch's fine as long as you remember not to read the postsBig Grin
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#26
Hells teeth! It has to be said that despite the obviously diverse nature of (earth?/pagan) belief systems prevalent in the UK, there can really be no serious claim for the "repatriation" of Human remains based upon recently designed theologies. That said, as archies of all flavours, we must concede that by the (unecessary) removal of Human remains from their interment state could be seen as severing the individuals "rites of passage" whatever that may have been believed to be. Its possibly appropriate here to re-emphasise my view that as archaeologists (particularly in the UK), we have no real justification for the removal of interred Human remains unless it can be demonstrated that they are at risk in a real and impending way.I`m one of those people who believes that respect costs nothing- disturbing and removing Human remains in the context of "research" or entertainment television programmes is disgusting.Equally, the pagan/earth theology community must surely concede that as they have even less of an idea as to the real elements of theology/belief systems on the part of past communities than we do-would they not be disrespectful to the dead in attempting to re-patriate ancient people in a manner that would be undoubtedly far removed from the original concepts or indeed even offensive to the dead?:face-huh:

..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)
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#27
Great post Gog, and likewise Gumbo!!!
Here's the question, which of the described groups of Pagans wants reburial of ancestral remains?
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#28
Looking back at the original post, its the Council of British Druid Orders, abbreviated to CoBDO and classified as 'Meso-Druids' in the Britarch posting quoted by Gog.

1man1desk

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#29
Extending this topic out a bit - are we also going to get an increase in people objecting to any excavation of prehistoric sites (not just burials) on 'religious' grounds. We've already had a taste of this with the antics of Catweazle and his pals at Seahenge.

Also, I notice that the gods of the Ancient Greeks are back in fashion in Greece (although the photos I've seen suggest you to have to dress up as a hoplite to take part - this may put a lot of people off as most folks don't have the legs for it). If the bug spreads to Roman religion, could we have an onslaught on classical archaeology (probably not, but at least we could then send the neo-Romans to sort out the neo-Druids}Smile).
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