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The School of Jack
#41
Jack started this thread as it was quiet on here. Purely to instigate a bit of a discussion (it obviously succeeded) :face-approve:.

Is it the word professionalism that is the problem here? Sometimes, it is possible to recognise those archaeologists that started off their working lives in another career rather than doing the uni thing then onto the circuit. Work ethics seem to have escaped being taught at uni! I did the uni thing later on and whilst there, was somewhat amazed that some students thought it was their right to be able to submit wok late. In my previous, non-archaeological life, I always turned up for work on time, for example, if it snowed the night before then it meant getting up even earlier to assess the road conditions. A wee bit more effort is needed by some people me thinks!

Would have done a longer post lunch is over Wink
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#42
Seedy Girl Wrote:Jack started this thread as it was quiet on here. Purely to instigate a bit of a discussion (it obviously succeeded) :face-approve:.

Is it the word professionalism that is the problem here? Sometimes, it is possible to recognise those archaeologists that started off their working lives in another career rather than doing the uni thing then onto the circuit. Work ethics seem to have escaped being taught at uni! I did the uni thing later on and whilst there, was somewhat amazed that some students thought it was their right to be able to submit wok late. In my previous, non-archaeological life, I always turned up for work on time, for example, if it snowed the night before then it meant getting up even earlier to assess the road conditions. A wee bit more effort is needed by some people me thinks!

Would have done a longer post lunch is over Wink




It does sound a bit like you a really struggling to attract good staff and there does seem to bit of a student-bashing theme developing here. University doesn't exactly train people for the real world of commercial archaeology (that's arguably not what it's for). How about internal training and staff appraisal to weed out these issues rather than just saying some people (probably recent graduates) are inevitably lazy buggers?
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#43
Seedy Girl Wrote:In my previous, non-archaeological life, I always turned up for work on time...

Needs more work on that 'reading back through what you've written'... Wink

The most 9-5 PO I've ever worked with actually tended to endanger his passengers driving to work by extending this approach to travel time, on days I was filling in driving the same vehicle on the same run I was p***ing people off by making people get up 20 minutes earlier in order to arrive as the same time while taking some notice of the speed limits :0 ...he isn't here any more...

I've worked on several jobs where half the crew were sitting in the van on the dot at 5 on the last day and getting angry because...errr...the other people were loading the tools and cleaning out the cabin cos the other half couldn't be assed. That definitely gets remembered....and I've seen it far too often

Actually I may be the wrong person to be complaining since I tend to spend the time to get the job done however many hours are specified on my contract, often the best time to see features is early morning when the ground's damp from dew and the sun's not quite over the horizon for instance, and I'm never going to hand a site back till I've got it tidied up and in order, even if there wasn't time to do justice to the archaeology. We once rescued an entire van-load of fencing, grid pegs and the like from a site that someone had 'disestablished' from, makes you weep... Sad
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#44
Jack Wrote:Commercial archaeology is all about the numbers.....how many persondays to complete an area the client needs back in a hurry, how much extra time is needed to finish the newly discovered round barrow etc...

Hope you aren't promoting 'lego-brick' archaeology! :0
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#45
There are a lot of industies where going that extra mile is the norm where nine hour days are expected though not on paper. admittedly they pay a lot more than archaeology. Surely it is not too much to expect people to understand that a work ethic is a necessary attribute to anyone who wants to get on. The world is not fair never was and never will be if you want a job and promotion you have got to have something to offer an employer a willingness to do a good days work is a reasonable starting place.

I too get really p..... off at the end of the day when one group are lounging around waiting to leave whilst the others are clearing the site and packing things away. It does not need a degree or extra staff training to work out those little jobs that need doing and get on and do them. Age and training are irrelevant to this, some people get it some people don't.
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#46
All of this is fine and I'm not attacking a strong honest work ethic or saying everyone should work their exact hours only (God knows I have spent enough extra time working on things when I would have rather been at home), but having to work at 110% all the time does sometimes seem like the expected norm in archaeology and it is not sustainable nor should people feel pressured (for that perhaps read bullied) into doing it. Making it standard is not healthy and will just maintain high staff turnover and burnout. Not to mention the issue of poor management putting people under time pressure. Leaving 20 minutes early to get to site? Who worked out the presumably unrealistic travel time when costing it up?
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#47
Poor management is an issue but not sure about travel time most people who work in an office travel to get there what you accept as a reasonable travel time is up to you. For me it's around an hours driving at each end of the day if a job is going to take more than that and there is no accomodation then I dont take the job, simples. And I do adjust the time I leave according to weather and traffic reports If I am contracted to be there for an eight,thirty start then I will be there at that time if not before. Disasters permitting
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#48
...forgot to point out that the only reason I was there and having to do the driving at all was another one of those 'going the extra mile' things -having to go stop over in accom rather than sleeping in my own bed/having a life cos none of the lazy b******s can be assed to pass a test and drive themselves to work in the vehicle provided Sad!
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#49
Dinosaur Wrote:...forgot to point out that the only reason I was there and having to do the driving at all was another one of those 'going the extra mile' things -having to go stop over in accom rather than sleeping in my own bed/having a life cos none of the lazy b******s can be assed to pass a test and drive themselves to work in the vehicle provided Sad!

You could always start the day be telling the team that they are all lazy bastards, thats bound to improve morale and keep them motivated on site.

To be honest, I stopped caring about the school of Jack after this:
"If you don't dig, you can't be an archaeologist. Go home."

So none of this applies to me, because commercial excavation is the only thing that actually counts as being 'archaeology. Its just another thread for the middle managers to vent frustration and have a pop at the young.
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#50
Oxbeast Wrote:You could always start the day be telling the team that they are all lazy bastards, thats bound to improve morale and keep them motivated on site.

To be honest, I stopped caring about the school of Jack after this:
"If you don't dig, you can't be an archaeologist. Go home."

So none of this applies to me, because commercial excavation is the only thing that actually counts as being 'archaeology. Its just another thread for the middle managers to vent frustration and have a pop at the young.


Well said Oxbeast, if only I could have kept my initial response so short and to the point.

As for the whole issue of not learning to drive - we've been over this before. When Dino first learnt to drive a horseless carriage it probably only cost two bob, you didn't need insurance, and you could drive non-handed if you so wished as the local members of watch were too busy looking for witches. Why you expect a new archaeologist unmotivated by a shit contract and saddled with £30,000 of student debts to also have paid to learn to drive I have no idea. :p
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