Time Team Down Under

[Arthus]

I'm an archaeologist working in Western Australia.
I wrote to time Team but got no response. So if anyone works for them please pass this on.

Time team is very popular here, but when you say you are an archaeologist working in Australia people look confused..

They just don't think about the 60000 years of human occupation.

Australia is still a very racist country and Aboriginal people die 20 years before whites.

In Perth until 1968 Aboriginal people were arrested for walking across the CBD.

There is so much potential for TV archaeology here.

And it has not been done yet.

For example, in West Australia Rottnest Island is Perths favorite holiday spot and virtually no one knows its history.

From 1838 until the 1930s it was a concentration camp for Aboriginal people. The records show that twelve Aboriginal men were executed in what is now an expensive hotel and the guests sleep in the old codemned cells.

The Grave yard has the poorer peoples camp site over it.

Several thousand men died of influenza. Aboriginal oral history suggests many more executions.

Last time I went I found one photo in the museum.

See Sally Morgans painting on the web 'welcome to Rottnest'

Many holiday makers would be appalled if they knew, especially those from Europe.

So why doesn't some TV types link up with the ABC or the SBS and go for it.

So if anyone who can do something reads this contact me.

I need credit for the idea and a spot on the program idealy designed to upset racists...

Arthus

[BAJR Host]

Incredible posts there Arthus - very political.. very important.

SO anyone care to comment? or pass this on?

I looked at what they (local authourity) say about the island
http://www.rottnestisland.com/en/History...efault.htm

The history of Rottnest Island has created a rich and significant cultural heritage. First records of human occupation of Rottnest Island are from more than 6,500 years ago when the Island was still attached to the mainland, and Aboriginal people inhabited the area. Since its initial European exploration from the 17th Century and its settlement in 1829, Rottnest Island has been through a number of stages of development and has been used for a variety of purposes.

seem to be missing a bit there!

Pre 6500 years ago
Aboriginal occupation.

1658 - 1829
European exploration.

1829 - 1838
European settlement, pastoral, fishing and salt gathering.

1838 - 1844
Aboriginal prison, farming, pastoral and salt gathering.

1844 - 1849
Aboriginal prison and pilot service, farming, pastoral and salt gathering.

1849 - 1855
Pilot service and lease, farming, pastoral and salt gathering.

1855 - 1903
Aboriginal prison, Governors' Residence and Boys' Reformatory, pilot service and
lease, farming, pastoral and salt gathering.

1903 - 1936
Recreational use, internment.

1917
Rottnest Island was declared an A-Class Reserve under the Permanent Reserve Act 1899 and the Rottnest Board of Control was formed.

1936 - 1985
Recreational use and military training.

1985 onward
Recreational use.


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Arthus]

This one should have been put on the other one 'LOTS OF WORK DOWN UNDER SO I'LL PUT IT THERE AS WELL"

I will be watching this thread more closely –
Me too.
I’ve left it a while, given myself a cooling off period. However, I am afraid I have just got more angry.

Yes, I do have a thing about Rottnest Island. It’s because it WAS a concentration camp used to execute and detain Aboriginal prisoners and this fact is covered up in order to ensure the continual profits from the people who visit this beautiful place.

Concentration camp as with the British in South Africa or when John Howard locked up five year old unaccompanied refugees in desert concentration camps.
This reminds me of the history wars, next we will be arguing if genocide occurred.
I won’t bother, just look up the UN definition.
I think tourists should be told about the real history of Rottnest.
Having extensively travelled around Australia I suspect that many of the tourists who flock to the genuine sellers of Aboriginal art, the Aboriginal owned art galleries. Which in the ‘nice’ towns are on the high street and in the ‘non-nice’ [non-nice ok? Not too shocking in language?] they find by following the lonely planet guide they find the people, down a dusty track and these people at least might like to know the facts.

Now I’m an Aussie, I am a citizen, of course when I got my passport at the ‘rocks’ in Sydney, I had only to agree that I knew that compulsory voting ($20 fine if you don’t) was the rule. I mean I didn’t have to take the new citizen test and name the first Prime minister of Australia or even repeat the government slogan on the celebration of federation, ‘a country born with a vote and no a war’.
Nice, except of course if you look at the alliance of Labor and Capital which introduced the White Australia policy and ensured that even if a none White migrant could speak English they could always be tested in Serbian. And that in the 1950s, the government policy was to ensure no Jews or undesirables got in (Asians) got in (could be seen as emotive language I suppose, but look it up).
That’s all in the past I suppose. Actually only a few years ago when my friend was harried (racial abuse) on the streets “to get back to his own country” whilst me and my partner who at the time were migrants were not. Of course, the fact that Daves father was a Chinese who had managed to live in NSW countryside because of the support of the local community in the 1950s and was more Aussie than us was not considered by the racists (sorry too strong, lets think, I know, miss guided individuals who because of their upbringing feared the people from China).
But the point is in Randwick we collected over 40000 signatures against Pauline and the vast majority from old white Australians some of whom who had fought the fascists in Sydney in the 1930s (New Guard).
So lets explain the words ‘racist hole’, silly words.
I mean it’s a direct quote from another of my Aboriginal friends, but what would he know. Let us rephrase, not a ‘racist hole’ but a lovely place like anywhere else.
Like everywhere else, like Northern Ireland with interment, Birmingham after the IRA (*Note the large number of British agents on the army council) pub bombs when Irish shop stewards were smashed to a pulp. I mean the fact that my Irish friends who were not interested in politics were continually picked up in the 1980s, that wasn’t racism I suppose?
My name is Stephen Arthur (just in case its not clear) and on my first sale of Socialist Worker I was head banged by a member of the NF, later that year my cousins husband was bashed by the police and when charged with damaging a police cell because he was black they read out what he was meant to have said in pigeon English. The fact that he taught English in Westminster Private School didn’t make a difference. Plead guilty he would have got a ten pound fine, but my family fought it all the way, barristers the lot. He lost.
And when was it he was refused entry to Spain 1987 I think.
What’s the point of all this you ask? Whats it got to do with archaeology? I’ll get there.
What I am suggesting is that ethno centralism is common to all human societies (including hunter-gatherers), the belief that your family/society are normal and others odd is age old. But since the beginning of time people have rebelled, perhaps when they decided the Vikings/Saxons/whatever might be ok and quite interesting.
Racism is maladaptive and white supremism ends up like pedigree dogs or horses or a group of twelve families on an Island. Or the Royal family with their attempt at new blood (Norman) ends up with Dianna…
It is early in the morning.
But all (most) politicians are psychopaths (sorry I’ll use less emotive, ‘borderline personality disorders’) and all over the world, racism exists all over the world.
The proportion of racists is probably the same everywhere.
But, I live here, in Perth.
I joined the Anti-Nazi League in 1980, I would have no hesitation of calling most places I lived as ‘racist holes’, but racist holes full of anti-racists fighting against the racists
Like Leeds, Bradford, Belfast, Paris (pick a city, country… which one is worse? Well of course, there are differences).
But I reckon that the better places occur because people who hate racism use emotive language, probably silly leftists who just can’t shut about it have caused change.
Bit like those moaning people who went on about slavery, I mean how could they, look at all those lovely buildings in Bristol and Liverpool. I mean who wants to know about shackles under the Liver building?
And of course, fighting against people who poured petrol into the letter boxes of African Asians forced to flee from the racist Idi Amin were just creating a fuss.
Or going to France to fight the FN, or living in Japan and fighting the Uroku (Fascist who stabbed the major or Nagasaki for suggesting that the Emperor was guilty) all a waist of time.
I mean nothing has changed has it, I expect everyday you see signs up in the UK saying ‘for sale to white family only’ don’t you.
And of course any changes that did occur were not to do with ‘those extremists’ (just as bad as the others they always said) who fought at Lewisham.
By the way, I knew Blair Peaches widow.
No nothing to do with do gooding anti-racists all the changes came about by quiet people who ‘went through the right channels, nothing to do with the Indian workers movement and the young Asians who fought the NF off the streets in the 70’s.
And as for the young non-Jewish communists who defied their leaders and joined with the Jews from Brick Lane and smashed Mosley in the 1930s, they should have listened to the respectable people and stoped using emotive language.
So, why the reaction? Perhaps because I was not Aussie born?
Or well let these people talk to my Aussie born Australian Aboriginal friends.
Let them see the people I meet daily in my job as a community psychiatric nurse.
Let them talk to the Aboriginal people I work with in archaeology.
So let’s be clear every country is full of racism and every one is nice too.
I remember that when Yugoslavia exploded, nice people practising genocide.
Bit like Neville really, nice man just doing his job removing light skinned Aboriginal kids.
So to get to the point finally.
I am Australian until I start talking like this and then at the BBQ, I’m not I’m a Pom, the fact that in health and archaeology I have spent my whole time friends with Aboriginal people and that the person I’m arguing with has never left Subiaco and has never met an Aboriginal person doesn’t matter.
So everywhere is racist but WA and Perth has a real problem with ‘Institutional Racism’.
And my evidence:
During the last two years, Perth has become full of those quaint bronze statues of people standing on the street. And who are they, white colonialists – everywhere (and if anyone can assist me in drilling a hole into one or two so we can affix a spear let me know).
The streets have plaques on the pavement to every manner of white hero’s and occasional heroines.
For example Daisy Bates is there and called ‘a friend of the aborigines’ [sic], no mention of her boast that she never tolerated a half-caste [sic] baby in her camp and her approval of light skinned babies being thrown down rabbit holes.
I know of one Aboriginal statue, Yagan on Herrison Island , but then about once a year the bronze statue has its head cut off.
And we have the Graham Farmer Highway (famous footy player) but then as his daughter and brother told me he was left destitute at the time of its building.
Aboriginal custodians of Kings Park have told me they don’t mind all the war memorials (although no one ever asked), it is after all a sacred site but they would like a statue for the Aboriginal fallen but its been consistently refused (lets hope the snake wakes up).
Old Swan Brewery, urban land claim refused, for years the bench nearby painted in Aboriginal colours, for years painted over, well done the emotive emotional man who kept repainting.
Now at the moment another urban land claim won in the courts but the good old Labor Party fighting it.
The exclusion zone for kids (90% Aboriginal) going to Northbridge extended.
Two years ago the specialist mental health services for Aboriginal people abolished.

My orientation at RPH included not one mention of Aboriginality and this much worse than NSW.
And I’m afraid I have met racist archaeologists they do in fact exist and I have even met them in the UK (shock horror).
And if there is any doubt that even archaeologists can be racist note Kossinna, Kenwick man and how the BJP fooled many (including a Lord) when WAC was in India.
Yes, even archaeologists can have human flaws.
But perhaps archaeologist should study a history which is ever present.
But from the first there were white people who supported Aboriginal people, the man no one would talk to in about 1832 because he let Aboriginal people into his house, the Catholic Bishop who objected to leg and neck irons (Used in Cue until 1950), he ended up with only two people in his congregation, the communist Party in the 1930s, the Communist white soldier who fought with his Aboriginal mates on the Kokoda trail and then was arrested over and over again for drinking with his Aboriginal mates throughout the 1950s and 60s.
Catherine and Ronald Berndt, Bob Tonkinson in anthropology and Balme and Bowdler in archaeology in recent times.
There have always been anti-racists fighting in Perth.
So I will leave it there.
But what I would like to see is one of the outraged Aussie archaeologists comment.
And if they live in Perth tell me (Stephen Arthur).
Tell me if you don’t agree, why you don’t agree.
Challenge the facts and get over the moaning pom stuff.
For starters, IS IT OK THAT THE TRUE HISTORY OF PERTH IS HIDDEN?
And if you agree what should we do?
I mean apart from writing to UK sites and it filtering back to Australia (yes I’ve seen Ausarch)…
Lets stire it up


Arthus

[BAJR Host]

Most interesting - only spoiled by sarcasm and self righteousness.. Yes I was in the ANL.. and briefly the ALF, I was also a skinhead (non-nazi) I was the guitarist for Oi-Polloi with its well known anti bigot stance.. etc etc... it does not make anything better...

and arguing the point calmly often gets you listened to... shouting the point from frustration often gets you ignored or seen as someone to avoid (as a matter of interest.. as an anarchist - Class War) I would deliberately cross the road if I saw Socialist Workers... becuase I could not bear thier preaching and right-on rhetoric... Yup... there must be something weird if a CLass War anarchist sees the Socilaist Workers as embarressing..

You call a place a 'racist hole’ but get upset if people suggest that you may be as bigotted as those you seek to fight..

Think about it... there are extremes and then the middle grey area... So to you... Perth is a Racist Hole... and fortunately you and a few others fight against a hell hole of 99.9999% racism.. thanks for that...

Should we be outraged about the treatment of Aboriginal Australians... absolutely.. should it be challenged.

For example... rather than shouting at us that ..." orientation at RPH included not one mention of Aboriginality " why not ask why... a simple question... one that might get an answer if you don't accuse them of outright racism right at the start.

I too have met bigots in archaeology... from anti Gay to mysoginist though I never met a Racist archaeologist (which did surprise me - and I suspect I have but they keep it inside) and I started in the UK back in 1981 - I met some from other countries though... so you are right, they do exist. But what exactly are you trying to prove.? Are you hoping that somehow we will listen and march as brotheren and sisteren beneath the flag... wiping out the curse of Racism forever.

Or is it possible to debate it...


ps... I got battered by the police quite a few times... mainly for being gobby... you might remember that in the 80s.


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[BAJR Host]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/com...3667616.jp

This attitude is the one that needs consideration.. I quite agree with Hardeep ... tacitly allowing racism to happen around you.. is bad enough.. to allow it to go unpunished... worse still

HARDEEP SINGH KOHLI - Scotland on Sunday

quoteunishment should fit the crime when it comes to monkey business

At the football recently, when one of the opposition players, a Chinese international called Sun Jihai, came tight to our byline, a man behind me shouted a rather derogatory remark about the player selling DVDs, remarks shouted in an equally derogatory accent. Without thinking I turned round and suggested that those comments had no place on the terraces of the club I follow. The torrent of abuse he returned to me quickly made me realise two things:

1 I really should have taken a moment to see how big and fierce the guy was before chastising him. Much as I don't like to admit it, in these matters of social protocol it's always wise to pick your fight carefully;

2 A man that makes dodgy comments is unlikely to react particularly well to a third party questioning the veracity of his comments.

Luckily our stooshie occurred with only 20 minutes to go so I only had to put up with his sarcasm and abuse for less than a quarter of the match.

Now, the football terraces are no place for the faint-hearted or thin-skinned. But what annoys me more than anything else was not the bigoted comments of this knuckle-headed individual: he's a lost cause. It was the singular lack of response from any of the spectators around me. There are sins of omission as well as commission.

And on that point, it seems only right to look at racism on the other side of the world, in a game that appears to be from a different planet for most of us Scots. A Sikh member of the Indian cricket team, Harbhajan Singh, has been accused of making racists comments to a mixed race Australian cricketer, Andrew Symonds. He has been banned from the next three matches.

Of course, when it comes to banter – or sledging as it is better known – the Aussies are masters. But one draws the line at comments that refer to players as "monkeys". Twenty years after Mark Walters' debut for Rangers was greeted with bananas thrown on to the pitch by rival fans, it seems little has moved on. But I ask you this: although Singh's guilt is questionable, based on hearsay alone, if he was in fact guilty of such remarks, is a three-match ban enough? Surely a season's ban or a lifetime ban would send the correct message about intolerance of racism. A three-match ban would follow ball-tampering. Are we equating racism with ball-tampering? And if Singh had punched an umpire square in the face, surely his ban would be more severe than three matches? He would no doubt face criminal charges. If we are serious about wanting to eradicate racism then we need to be serious about punishing it.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[tom wilson]

Hmm, an interesting if slightly rambling debate. Given the plethora of points made, I shall answer in kind.

-on topic, if you wish Time Team to come and do some useful (dare I say politically constructive) archaeology, why not invite them to contribute to a project focussed on Indigenous Peoples? I mean something not about the white settlers, or about abuse of the locals by white settlers, but something about how interesting and worthy of respect the locals are in themselves. This could make the important point (so obvious to archaeologists that we might sometimes forget to mention it) that there is no correlation between technological sophistication on the one hand and knowledge/education or cultural sophistication on the other. Worthy and interesting though Rottnest sounds, you may have to do a bit of groundwork before you start castigating Whitey if you are going to open the minds that need opening.

-my cousin worked as a doctor in the Northern Territories, and experienced two tiers of health provision, that in the aboriginal settlements being '20 years out of date by comparison', and his efforts to effect change met stiff resistance. This anecdotal evidence seems typical. Services, justice, opportunities and status of Indigenous Peoples are clearly worse than for the whites, but there are likely numerous and complex reasons for it, and not all of them consciously malicious. There's no sense demonising the entire white population.

-to paraphrase the great Garth Marenghi (in the Darkplace episode 'Scotch Mist'), my mate Graham moved to Perth; he says it's quite nice.
I'll have to ask Graham sometime whether it's a racist hole.

-my Grandad was in the Battle of Cable Street. I'd be happy to say he was manning the barricades but he was a police sergeant, fighting 'the communists' i.e. all of the anti-facists, who he saw as a trouble making rabble. Ten years later, everyone had a different perspective of course. (No-one fought Moseley's facists on that day, they stood on the bridge awhile and then went home). We'd have had some interesting conversations if he'd lived just a few more years. (Rat, did you have a hand in the Cable Street related Oi Polloi track 'Let the Boots Do the Talking'?)

-let's not all get our pin badge collections out and go on about how activist we are. It doesn't advance the debate one iota. If it's really necessary, we could have a 'How much have you suffered for your politics?' thread, but this isn't it. Actually that might be quite fun.

-I just saw a middle-aged bloke in Tescos with 'Combat 18' tattooed on his neck. The tatt looked old and he might have changed his views of course, but notwithstanding the fact that the Australian state and people have a problem to deal with, bigots are everywhere including here. As they used to write on the walls of Paris in 1968, 'there is a policeman in all of us; he must be killed'.

The Main Point
Anyway my main point is: big up the Indigenous Peoples and their culture (not just the art, although that was a start). Address racialism, rather than making accusations of racism (there is a difference). Considering where you're starting from you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today.

freeburmarangers.org

[tom wilson]

Here's an interesting conundrum. The often-stated reasons why white Australians look down on Indigenous Peoples are because they regard them as lazy, drunken dole-scroungers. From a western perspective, it's perfectly reasonable to look down on people like that. This is an enormous problem for liberal lefty types, because many Indigenous Peoples [u]are</u> alcoholics and [u]do</u> claim welfare payments. The usual leftist explanations for this relate to disenfranchisement, empirialism, collonialism, racism, etc. which all boil down to abuse by Whitey. Even if this were the sole cause of any misery amongst indgenous groups, it's deeply unconstructive as it enshrines the status of those groups as passive victims, which is a discriminatory status in itself. No wonder well-meaning white researchers are sometimes met with less-than-open arms by the people they think they are helping. In any case, I don't think it's true, not all of these problems are caused by the evil white man. Let me explain why.

Michael Taussig wrote an excellent book called 'the devil and commodity fetishism in south america' dealing with an analogous situation in Bolivia and Columbia. First, he demolishes any argument that capitalism is anything other than a social construct, rather than the natural order of things as many modern economists and Social Darwinists would have us believe. Then, he describes how attempts to mobilise post-slavery peasant communities using capitalist incentives failed dismally. If the hourly rate was raised as an incentive to do more work, people worked less hours. If people wanted a specific expensive product (a fridge perhaps), they would do extra work until they got what they wanted and then stop working. All of their working relations also continued to be drenched in their 'pre-capitalist' world view, including witchcraft, the devil etc., which functioned in new and strange ways in their new world. Needless to say, globalisation hasn't been kind to South American peasantry.

What does this have to do with Australia? Well, the same processes are in operation. The Indigenous Peoples are not towing the line like good capitalists should, probably because a world-view based on ever-increasing consumption seems insane to people only a couple of generations from a subsistence foraging economy. In other areas of the world colonised by the British, people adapted better if their pre-existing cosmology and economy meshed more easily with that expoused by the Redcoats (e.g. the Mughals found convenient parallels with the Raj).

So the likely resolution to the problems of Indigenous Peoples is that they become obedient wage-slaves like white folks. That would be a terrible shame, not only because it would entail the destruction of a unique group of cultures, but also because the wider world needs to incorporate some of the thinking patterns of the Indigenous Peoples. It would be terrible because capitalism really isn't natural law, and us white folks would do well to note that in an environment of finite resources, rampant consumption will lead inevitably to everyone dying in the desert.

Rant over.
Read Talsig though: he's great.
Peace out.

freeburmarangers.org

[Arthus]

Tom says

"my Grandad was in the Battle of Cable Street. I'd be happy to say he was manning the barricades but he was a police sergeant, fighting 'the communists' i.e. all of the anti-facists, who he saw as a trouble making rabble. Ten years later, everyone had a different perspective of course. (No-one fought Moseley's facists on that day, they stood on the bridge awhile and then went home)."

Further information on this:

A Law had been introduced by the Labour Government which was argued would stop the Black Shirts marching. It was never used against the facists but several times against the anti-fascists. Labour Leaders argued at the time that to physically stop the fascists was to play into their hands and the right tactic was just to ignore them. This has been argued again and again and again down the ages, for example in the 1970's when the NF were taking third place in council election.

This argument is often linked to the 'everyone has freedom of speech' argument. However, I and many others would argue that allowing freedom of speech to those will close down all freedom of speech is ridiculas.

But people who argue for freedom of speech for all don't really mean it. For who would they really argue that someone should be allowed to stand on a platform and argue for child abuse or the systematic rape of women?

Hitler came to power because his organisation was only confronted too late with the Social Democrats saying 'don't demonstrate' and the Communists saying 'all non communists are as bad as each other.'

Hitler in 'My struggle', said 'if they had confronted us at the begining we would have been finished'.

Often, anti-fascists end up fighting the police, since the police always protect the fascists and many police belong to fascists groups (they used to wear their NF badges on their uniforms in the 70's and 1980s.

What happened on the day was the Jewish Board of Deputies and the Communist Party leadership didn't want an anti-fascist protest but young Jews and young communists (many of whome were also Jewish) united together and drew in hundreds of workers both Jew and non-Jew. Despite their battering by the police the group of young men and women stoped the blackshirts marching. This was signicant since before that they could go anywhere.

They were never the same after. The Battle of Cabble Street demonstrated that a 'united front' of people who might not support each other on many subjects could none the less band to gether when the enemy threatenend everyone.

It was more than a few people standing on the bridge however. It was a victory like Lewisham later in the 20th century tha demonstrated fascist could be stoped.

It occurred during a period when trade unions were mobilising to send supplies to the Republican government in Spain and young men from all over Europe were dying fighting Franco's forces.

Hundreds of thousands of left-wing people in Europe realised what fascism was a long time before 1939.

.. and history repeats itself over and over again, fascists march, Labour says ignore them and the police protect them and fight the anti-fascists..

Trendy liberal lefties say, the commies are as bad as the fascists use such extreme language, of course now the post-modernist elements can see everyones point of view even Hitler.

I'm affraid I'd rather take action to try and physically stop the fascists and in doing so inevidently end up fighting fascist protecting cops who always seem to relish "only doing their jobs" protecting the wrong people.

Mind you BADJR seems to think that people were "battered by the police quite a few times... mainly for being gobby... you might remember that in the 80s".

Where were you during the 80's??? Just quickly I remeber a handicapped man killed by a CS Gas canister in Liverpool, countless black people killed by the police in cells or the back of vans, I rember blood all over the floor of Warrington Hospital with young women with smashed shoulders and knees and one in a comma for a week and I remembert how in the miners strike the police always took the big miners out.

And lets not forget Northern Ireland.

With comments like that I really wonder what you were actually involved in?

Tom, what do you mean by "Considering where you're starting from you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today" ??

Do you mean that a migrant citizen should'nt attack racism in the country they now call home? You can't mean that because that would lead you to argue that migrants to Britain were second class citizens.

"You'll get nowhere", I suspect by this you think I can win over Pauline Hanson supporters by logical polite arguments. Racists can be won away from the attitudes by telling them the truth and arguing hard with them as the anti-Nazis members did when they stood outside certain football grounds and managed to recruit NF members into the Anti-Nazis league. But the arguments were backed with the clear knowledge that if the arguments failed we would be physically confronting the NF and their friends and stoping them marching or attending a fascist meeting.

I well remember the hundreds of Anti-nazis skin heads on the Right To Work Marches etc.

I also remember how a NF shop steward in a Liverpool Bakers strike in the early 1980's changed his mind on immigrants when his speech translated into an Indian language (Urdu I think) resulted in the only other Bakery to come out on strike.

Incidently, BADJ HOST, I don't think class war existed in the early 80's or if they did not 'Up North', I only came across class war much later, when I saw them damaging rich peoples cars in London (fun I suspose for those who did it but fairly pointless) but I do remember how throughout the early 1980's various left wing people SWP, IMG, Millitant and no group etc would in every work place argue against racism, Ireland, womens liberation and Gay liberation.

Even then their existed a few individuals who argued that strong argument would "put People off".

Tom, you say "you'll get nowhere if you appear to be laying the sins of the past at the feet of white Australians today."

So where do I do that? I think you must have got that from a newspaper article and not by anything I wrote, if it 'appears' to you thats what I meant then it just shows how wrong you can be.

It would be silly, be like blaming you for the actions of your Grand Dad when I only 'blame you' for you innadequate research (the whole story is securely told in many history books with supporting eyewitness accounts from both side.

It is fairly boring to be accussed of steriotype attitudes that I don't possess.

Lets make it clear, I don't blame anyone for their ancestors actions but do blame governments and racist individuals for failing to do anything about the inequalities that exist in the-here-and-now.

And I think whether in Australia or the UK its quite valid for anyone whether born in the country or outside to point out how important history, even recent history is to both an understanding of the present and in order to prevent the same mistakes occurring again and again...



Arthus

[tom wilson]

oh boy, oh boy, oh boy; where to start?
OK, first off, NO FACISTS FOUGHT ANY COMMUNISTS AT THE BATTLE OF CABLE STREET
Second, Class War started in 1983.
Third, am I saying immigrants shouldn't be allowed to complain about racism? Imagine, for a moment, what kind of person would say that; well, the words you might use to describe such a person are the same as those I would apply to you for suggesting it.
You really are going to get nowhere.

It's a shame, really, that our aims are pretty much identical but you insist on being so offensive and alienating. That'll be Socialist Worker then.

freeburmarangers.org

[Austin Ainsworth]

Hi Tom,

now it's my turn turn to advise you to take a deep breath and walk away.

If you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow, you need buttermilk and cheese and an equilateral chainsaw. Half Man Half Biscuit