Nudge in the direction for the definition of a selfemployed archaeologist.

[RedEarth]

Apart from I had asked them to remove the rates they offer, as it is up to the individual ho much they wish to charge themselves out at. I can't have self employed rates... that is up to you. Though it has oft been repeated that self employed rate should be around 1.6 [at least] what an employed rate is. ie a digger should be starting at a minimum of about 100 upwards plus be asking about expenses - stuff that a real SE would know - my rates are anywhere between £155 - £250 pd depending on what is asked of me. )

It is unfortunate that people are using the word "advert" and that I provide a "job service". hence it is clear beyond all doubt the status of the individual who is being asked to talk to the client. where they will ( as grown ups) negotiate their rate.

This is a hoary old chestnut. and there is even a BAJR guide about it.

There is nothing illegal about it and happens rarely now. If you want to talk to the client, then talk to them and tell them what your day rate is, and negotiate your contract. If you can't do that./ then don't

I don't want to get too embroiled in this because I can't be bothered - but am I not correct in seeing the little ticks against G2 and G3? If that is not a suggested pay rate what is it? What if someone was interested but their day rate worked out at more than that? It's a jobs site but it's not a jobs site. I don't mean to knock because I fully respect everything that you do, but I just think this sort of advert is potentially misleading. And as I said, people who are desperate, perhaps not that experienced and not totally sure what self-employed means, could be leaving themselves open to expolitation. Although, how one would notice the difference in the world of archaeological employment, God only knows. Are there even any new inexperienced people out there looking to be exploited... I mean, looking for work?

[BAJR]

The G2 and G3 is nothing to do with pay rates. ( which are actually pay minima for anyone who reads the documents and FAQs etc. )

BAJR has decided to implement a simple system based upon duries and responsibilities expected of an individual:
http://www.bajr.org/Employment/UKEmploymentFAQ.asp

The pay bands are not meant to be expected pay levels, but a minima below which a person cannot be paid below.

In addition, the pay minima relate to employed positions. if you want to charge yourself out at £50 a week as a self employed person with all the responsibility that it entails, then I can't stop you. as long as you do the job to the required level.

G2
General knowledge of work required, should be able to carry out work with instruction from Supervisor or a senior field worker.
This grade would be for a person with 6 months - 1 years work at this level.
G3
Experienced in most aspects of the work, though will receive supervision and further instruction from higher levels.
Usually the person has a longer experience in chosen field than G2 - rated in years rather than months.

I just think this sort of advert is potentially misleading.

it is not an employment advert though, it is a clear request for self employed people to express an interest in presenting their rates... and terms

people who are desperate, perhaps not that experienced and not totally sure what self-employed means, could be leaving themselves open to expolitation

and that is where I come in and ensure this does not happen. unless you want to suggest that the person who placed this "advert" is exploiting people. which is kind of what people are suggesting. and I am sure that you and others would not want to publicly say that.

BAJR protect people as best it can against exploitation. which is why this was discussed beforehand.

So ... hands up who thinks that this is a advert designed to exploit inexperienced people? and then ask again... why are they open to exploitation? and then ask... what do I do to ensure it does not happen.?

ah..

BAJR produces a guide to self employemnt:

oh and so do the IfA
so the people who are exploited by the evil self employed scammers... who have also managed to con BAJR... don't actually read anything... about the self employed status.

Come on people... do better than that. and do try to be bothered/

[Marc Berger]

Hosty I hasten to add that I undertook this topic in order to elicit advice for the contractees on what they should be looking for in a self employed archaeologist. I think that it is not as opaque as it should be when terms and rates of "employment" are employed....could be that you might consider a British Archaeological Contracts and Resources page. Could be called BACR. Say it enough and it sounds a bit entrepreneurial.

[Wax]

It's your websiite Mr B and we should all know by now that you play a very straight game. Yet even as someone who has gone down the self employed route on occasions and found it works I still feel very ambivalent about it. It has been a last resort and done with eyes wide open following the guidance that is out there. I have not felt exploited but very vulnerable indeed and have meet others doing the same who have been niave, to put it mildly, however as you say we are all grown ups

[BAJR]

British Archaeological Contracts and Resources
tried that. but was not checked enough and as BAJR is, then it will continue to show the rare SE offer

Wax has the right idea. it is not something to go into as a raw novice.
however:
http://www.archaeologists.net/practices/selfemployment
http://www.bajr.org/BAJRGuides/17.%20Emp...ployed.pdf

two documents concerning this issue to help those considering the self employed route.

we have been here several times before over the past 10 years : http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/showthread.php?...aeologists

ps..

if you click info on the grades sidebar:

[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Pay Minima
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

(Guidance on basic minima for each Grade)

All these rates are minima above which an individual is expected to be remunerated. Higher rates are expected for those with more skills that are utilised over and above the job requirements - ie, survey, finds, site drawing or photography etc. For self employed adverts the rate is set by the individual - not the client and the contract should reflect this. This will be higher to cover tax, NI and all the other expenses from a true self employed archaeologist.

[Marc Berger]

They are both worthy documents on self employment as against employment. It would be nice to have a guide on self employment which does not mention anything about employment. For me both documents don't say anything about what it is that archaeologists produce and how archaeologists should manage their products (charge for their products).

Hopefully we wont be here in ten years time

[BAJR]

That is very kind of you to offer to write the BAJR Guide on this subject, as it is clear you have spent a lot of time thinking about it.

Then we won't be here in Ten years time.

copyright for teh document remains with teh author of course, - though it will be edited, prior to final approval.

the guide should be around 5-10 pages long.

When do you think you can have a draft ready?

[RedEarth]

I thought I had left myself well clear of any claim that I was potentially libelling the authors of this particular advert, sorry, employment opportunity, by the careful use of the words 'potentially' and 'could' but maybe not.

OK G2/G3 are guides to competence, sorry, but they are also closely linked on the same page to 'pay minima' and when two are ticked you sort of have a pay rate between them. In either case is it a potentially tricky issue when dealing with the 'self employed'.

You would think people would know better and be grown ups but I'm certainly aware of enough people who have been exploited down the road of self-employment and employment who should know better but also need a job and are essentially forced to take whatever crap is flung at them and BAJR is not omnipresent and omnipotent enough to save everyone from it. On the other hand what if someone applied with a massively high day rate, presumably they wouldn't stand a chance of getting the job even if they were eminently qualified.

PS if I opened a shoe shop but in amongst the shoes sold something that wasn't actually a shoe, even though it looked and felt like a shoe, browsers might feel a bit put out when they found out.

[Marc Berger]

I'll take that as a contract then hosty.

Not sure that pages worth makes much sense in the digital era.

Draft will not be ready today as I am undertaking my first "Heritage Statement" and am in a quandary over a burying toilet waste in Anglo-Saxon cemeteries system called "Trencharch" which is consuming a lot of my time.

Redearth

presumably they wouldn't stand a chance of getting the job even if they were eminently qualified

. I am not sure the self employed should ever get a job although there is nothing about the tax status to stop the self employed doing paye work as well.

[BAJR]

but I'm certainly aware of enough people who have been exploited down the road of self-employment and employment who should know better but also need a job and are essentially forced to take whatever crap is flung at them and BAJR is not omnipresent and omnipotent enough to save everyone from it.

I hope then that as you know them, you made sure that they were helped out. as you are right, I am not anywhere near omnipotent :face-angel: if not... next time you hear about an exploted archaeologist, let me know at the time and then I can do something.

This is a case of we all have to ensure that we support each other

I am absolutely sure that nobody was pointing to this particular "advert" and teh Grades are quite clear that they are about responsibility and expected minima remuneration. These occasional posts are very clear about what they are. --- perahps they don't fit exactly with the employed adverts. ( just like when PhD posts get placed online here) but it is a best fit. apologies to any who are confused by the nature of a single location.

If anyone is thinking of going Self Employed, start by reading teh two documents above.... AND even give me a call. Plus BAJRites will be there to guide you if they see you being exploited

PS if I opened a shoe shop but in amongst the shoes sold something that wasn't actually a shoe, even though it looked and felt like a shoe, browsers might feel a bit put out when they found out.

if that item was a sock... I guess they would not be too confused. the end of this particular posting... says in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS>>>

THIS IS FOR GENUINE SELF EMPLOYED ARCHAEOLOGISTS ONLY

I am at a loss how this would confuse the casual browser into thinking this is an employed job


Glad to hear that Marc has taken on the unpaid work for creating the document he desires. I look forward to it.
or... would I be right in thinking that talking about it is a lot easier than writing it. ??