10th March 2006, 10:54 AM
Thanks Real-job. Here are my responses:
5. Different organisations have different circumstances in different parts of the UK, relating to costs, competitors curatorial authority etc. They also have different benefits packages, and varying job descriptions. Where I last worked I was in an RAO that was competing against a number of other non-RAO organisations and the overhead was tight. Without access to surveys about pay across different units along comparative jobs we would just be comparing anecdotes. The outwage http://www.freewebs.com/outwageuk/ resource is useful but a) it is not a truly representative sample and b) There is confusion about job titles and no easy way of checking that equivalent jobs are being compared. For instance ?experienced archaeologist? meaning anything from experienced excavator to project manager is at the heart of the suggestions that RAOs are paying less. When I have time I?ll see if I can track down any potential sources of suitable data ? but otherwise we will be just quoting anecdotal evidence at each other which supports our beliefs, so wouldn?t get us much further.
Thinking about it, if we get beyond problems of commercial confidentiality, such a survey could be used to reassure managers that they would not be pricing themselves out of the market.
But in principle, except in very special circumstances, I doubt too many would risk it. It would be interesting to know the circumstances by which your employer pays more and is structured to determine if that is applicable to other organisations.
6. Well I see your point, but the NHS is a specific political case English Heritage has just had a real term funding cut, and I am not sanguine about the present government ignoring the concerns of developers (to take a constituency at random). It also boils down to selling archaeology as a serious profession deserving of proper pay to groups outside of the profession.
A project involving 10 PIFA, 2 AIFA and 1 MIFA would see its costs rise by c. ?23 000, using the numbers I gave. Never mind the increase in costs for new projects ? how does that effect existing projects? So wages have to be increased above average earnings increase in a managed way over a period of time, so that the increase in costs are known and can be planned for ? although what length that period is depends on what pressures can be bought.
7) Yes I agree. But the RAO scheme is voluntary ? if an organisation thinks that the costs and strictures involved are too much they will leave, so changes have to be made by peer group consensus. For your individual points
a) I agree
b) B) I disagree. I do not believe that the IFA minima act as breaks, (and we all agree that they should be ? there is no pressure on anyone ever to pay more than a minimum value set, and I don?t think that we will get far quoting anecdotal evidence at each other
c) What about Scaum? There are 52 RAOs at present ? yes they can benchmark wages, and are probably the best placed, but they are not very strongly based at present! I can see why they would be cautious, and why more RAOs could speed these mechanisms up.
Okay a more detailed mechanism
My back of the envelope exercise suggest that PIFA can be bought in line with the desired level over 3 years with a 2% above the annual average wage increase (AAWI) currently c. 4%. AIFA needs 5% above AAWI over 8 years and MIFA needs 5% above AAWI over 9 years. There are problems with this model ? for instance if you get used to above AAWI increases which then stop it could get annoying, especially if others in the grades above you are still getting increases. However I am concerned that the recognition of the different levels of responsibility (especially at AIFA level) are not suitably recognised in the current wage structure. Mind you as the MIFA and AIFA increases are set over the long term I would expect that they would be incorporated with the restructuring of the profession which would hopefully come with accreditation and chartered status. It strikes me that now would be a good time to get a campaign to negotiate for these rises for April 2008, which would allow plenty of time for people to manage cost increases.
:face-thinks: Well to be glib I would work for the organisation that was still in business. It would help if there were a greater awareness of employment rights in the population as a whole. Low paid units find workers at the moment, if you can?t get a job in a high paid unit would you leave the profession, or go to a low paid unit?
And for your second point ? it depends on the nature of your client base. Most clients in my experience will only pay for the archaeology because they have to, so they will try to use the cheapest that the curatorial service will allow. Of course some clients will realise that you get what you pay for, in terms of accurate costings and times, but they are not the majority!
This leads me back to my principle concern of lobbying for strong well supported curatorial services (even more important than pay, as that all becomes academic if there are no jobs, because there are no archaeological conditions on developments. But I digress?.)
10) Yes I agree with you and indeed the IFA has been amending its constitution to highlight this very point.
http://www.archaeologists.net/modules/ic...IFAAGM.doc
and this is why the changes to the minima have been suggested
http://www.bajr.org/BAJRForum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=430
11) Well I think both should work together ? its not a case of shifting responsibilities, but the more groups and the more people working and lobbying towards the same goals the easier and the speedier we get to where we all want to be! And I have to agree with what was put up elsewhere about chicken and eggs? However a campaign for a specific aim, such as suggested above would benefit from people joining the IFA (I would say that wouldn?t I!) so they could vote for change, or perhaps joining the diggers forum to help lobby the IFA, so that the members of the diggers forum on council can point to their huge support base, show the numbers supporting these changes. And of course more union involvement means that local negotiations, or even national pay bargaining, can point to a highly popular campaign to support pay claims.
5. Different organisations have different circumstances in different parts of the UK, relating to costs, competitors curatorial authority etc. They also have different benefits packages, and varying job descriptions. Where I last worked I was in an RAO that was competing against a number of other non-RAO organisations and the overhead was tight. Without access to surveys about pay across different units along comparative jobs we would just be comparing anecdotes. The outwage http://www.freewebs.com/outwageuk/ resource is useful but a) it is not a truly representative sample and b) There is confusion about job titles and no easy way of checking that equivalent jobs are being compared. For instance ?experienced archaeologist? meaning anything from experienced excavator to project manager is at the heart of the suggestions that RAOs are paying less. When I have time I?ll see if I can track down any potential sources of suitable data ? but otherwise we will be just quoting anecdotal evidence at each other which supports our beliefs, so wouldn?t get us much further.
Thinking about it, if we get beyond problems of commercial confidentiality, such a survey could be used to reassure managers that they would not be pricing themselves out of the market.
But in principle, except in very special circumstances, I doubt too many would risk it. It would be interesting to know the circumstances by which your employer pays more and is structured to determine if that is applicable to other organisations.
6. Well I see your point, but the NHS is a specific political case English Heritage has just had a real term funding cut, and I am not sanguine about the present government ignoring the concerns of developers (to take a constituency at random). It also boils down to selling archaeology as a serious profession deserving of proper pay to groups outside of the profession.
A project involving 10 PIFA, 2 AIFA and 1 MIFA would see its costs rise by c. ?23 000, using the numbers I gave. Never mind the increase in costs for new projects ? how does that effect existing projects? So wages have to be increased above average earnings increase in a managed way over a period of time, so that the increase in costs are known and can be planned for ? although what length that period is depends on what pressures can be bought.
7) Yes I agree. But the RAO scheme is voluntary ? if an organisation thinks that the costs and strictures involved are too much they will leave, so changes have to be made by peer group consensus. For your individual points
a) I agree
b) B) I disagree. I do not believe that the IFA minima act as breaks, (and we all agree that they should be ? there is no pressure on anyone ever to pay more than a minimum value set, and I don?t think that we will get far quoting anecdotal evidence at each other
c) What about Scaum? There are 52 RAOs at present ? yes they can benchmark wages, and are probably the best placed, but they are not very strongly based at present! I can see why they would be cautious, and why more RAOs could speed these mechanisms up.
Okay a more detailed mechanism
My back of the envelope exercise suggest that PIFA can be bought in line with the desired level over 3 years with a 2% above the annual average wage increase (AAWI) currently c. 4%. AIFA needs 5% above AAWI over 8 years and MIFA needs 5% above AAWI over 9 years. There are problems with this model ? for instance if you get used to above AAWI increases which then stop it could get annoying, especially if others in the grades above you are still getting increases. However I am concerned that the recognition of the different levels of responsibility (especially at AIFA level) are not suitably recognised in the current wage structure. Mind you as the MIFA and AIFA increases are set over the long term I would expect that they would be incorporated with the restructuring of the profession which would hopefully come with accreditation and chartered status. It strikes me that now would be a good time to get a campaign to negotiate for these rises for April 2008, which would allow plenty of time for people to manage cost increases.
:face-thinks: Well to be glib I would work for the organisation that was still in business. It would help if there were a greater awareness of employment rights in the population as a whole. Low paid units find workers at the moment, if you can?t get a job in a high paid unit would you leave the profession, or go to a low paid unit?
And for your second point ? it depends on the nature of your client base. Most clients in my experience will only pay for the archaeology because they have to, so they will try to use the cheapest that the curatorial service will allow. Of course some clients will realise that you get what you pay for, in terms of accurate costings and times, but they are not the majority!
This leads me back to my principle concern of lobbying for strong well supported curatorial services (even more important than pay, as that all becomes academic if there are no jobs, because there are no archaeological conditions on developments. But I digress?.)
10) Yes I agree with you and indeed the IFA has been amending its constitution to highlight this very point.
http://www.archaeologists.net/modules/ic...IFAAGM.doc
and this is why the changes to the minima have been suggested
http://www.bajr.org/BAJRForum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=430
11) Well I think both should work together ? its not a case of shifting responsibilities, but the more groups and the more people working and lobbying towards the same goals the easier and the speedier we get to where we all want to be! And I have to agree with what was put up elsewhere about chicken and eggs? However a campaign for a specific aim, such as suggested above would benefit from people joining the IFA (I would say that wouldn?t I!) so they could vote for change, or perhaps joining the diggers forum to help lobby the IFA, so that the members of the diggers forum on council can point to their huge support base, show the numbers supporting these changes. And of course more union involvement means that local negotiations, or even national pay bargaining, can point to a highly popular campaign to support pay claims.