Please let something controversial break...

[BAJR Host]

I thank you for one of the best posts I have seen in along time..

You may not post often,... but boy do you hit the spot when you do..

People would be wise to listen -- read and read again!

Talk is so cheap... thank gawd some of us do... and hang the consequence

Thanks gorilla .. Is erious hope people read that post properly.!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Unitof1]

As I have got older, when feeling low, I have found contemplating the Dark Age helps. I have never really liked accepting the end of a Roman centric view thrown out to a world of funny maps with arrows showing the movements of vandles, visigoths, gepids, angles, thuringians, earls, frisians, franks etc when a perfectly simple papist continuity (via Constantinople, Avignon) would suffice (I think archaeologists should lump rather than split).

Currently the four vertically fluted (ribbed, columned, corded...) jug handle has caught my attention (more Hansic than Dark Age). In the space of a few weeks over Christmas I found buried in a thick clay layer which I had thought was sterile, a chunky four flutes (on the right), then on another site I got from a ditch the nice thumbed one, also four fluted (they- are believe)



And then along came these two beauties. They were mixed in with a bit of saucy slipware. They remind me of something but I dont seem to be able to put my finger on it; hopefully it will come to me soon. Not exactly sure if fluted is the word that I am looking for.

[img] http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2414/2206...3f.jpg?v=0 [/img]
I am also quite happy trawling around goggle books- its about time they got full access to all the academic libraries. Todays word was warp land. It seems the environment agency is set hell for leather to get rid of it.

[mercenary]

Yep, gorilla I have to say that I agree with much you say. Not all of us have lost our passion though. I have lost track of the number of times I've got a bit over-excited about something found or figured out on site (less often in post-ex) to be rewarded with blank stares or bemusement by colleagues.

I think that a lot of the bitching comes from archs who are still passionate enough to care, and that almost by definition includes all those who participate in the BAJR Forum. Is not the bigger problem the archs who don't give a s**t anymore, but have yet to leave the profession?

[tom wilson]

Gorilla


The good ‘ole days are gone.
They always are.
There were people making similar points to yours at least as far back as I remember, a few mini 'Golden Ages' notwithstanding (i.e. London in the late '80s).

Tangentally:
Quite a few professional here have castigated Gary Brun for his interest
I don't think that's true to be honest.
The occasional frank exchange of views shouldn't be misconstrued as overall distain.

[vulpes]

Gorilla, to paraphrase Josey Wales: 'Are you gonna pull that pistol or whistle Dixie?'

[gorilla]

Hmmm... feedback... and so much to think about (now have tune of Dixie in my head). Thanks!

Firstly Tom,

The good ‘ole days are gone.
They always are.
There were people making similar points to yours at least as far back as I remember, a few mini 'Golden Ages' notwithstanding (i.e. London in the late '80s).
Ok... yes, I agree. Maybe I am re-iterating a lot of what has been said before. More than likely, in a few years from now someone just like me will be saying just how great the 90's and 00's were. Maybe, as I get older and greyer (I approach my dotage with humility), the good 'ole, halcyon days of MY past are more prevalent in my mind than MY cruddy ones (I've been in archaeology for a while). I'm just a bit worried about my personal future, the future of my friends and my archaeological colleagues. I wonder about professional archaeology in general... sometimes it does seem like it is going down the pan. Yehaaa, maybe the cowboys will inherit the earth (I hope not). Maybe I'm a bit long-in-the-tooth for the way archaeology is progressing and that it is really young persons game? Maybe, as the film goes, this is "No place for old men".


Tangentally:
Quite a few professional here have castigated Gary Brun for his interest
I don't think that's true to be honest.
The occasional frank exchange of views shouldn't be misconstrued as overall distain.

Ok, maybe I used the wrong word in 'castigated' (a bit too strong). Still, some here think metal-detecting is, and always will be, a 'dirty habit'.

I think I'll continue to whistle Dixie for the moment.

[Unitof1]

quote: I'm just a bit worried about my personal future

Gorilla, although I am not clear what your circumstances are, have you considered returning to the ranks, doing the circuit, not having a pension or home, until one day keeling over on some wet and miserable evaluation for an industrial farming unit (battery chickens) and falling face down into another 1 metre ditch section (10% of what) through a “possible field system” you had given up bailing out where the only find was a piece of white ware found cleaning back. Live by the trowel…

Sorry it comes naturally. I started getting those images working for an archaeological “charity” after the first four “lay offs” occurred in my first week on one-month contacts. What I think I am trying to say is how did you think commercial (enforced) archaeology was going to turn out. It is not as though there are many role models. Its one of those industries where the vast majority of people who have ever done it are still alive and where the ones who got in first are still mainly running it (and in the same way that they made up when they started). The term “professional” for other branches of life has a some kind of evolved stereotype for the retired professional: the retired wing commander, doctor, bank manager. What’s it for “commercial” archaeologist? The academics have port drinking Lord Dons, the curators become a boss of a planning department and admit that they are civil servants on final salary and museum people find that they are Librarians.

It seems to me that in commercial archaeology the “professional” is still given (if not misled into) the image of trowel in hand digger for want of any better and consequently I would suggest the miserable ending is the appropriate climax particularly as it gets one out of the problem of retirement.

I believe that I can see the glimmer of this reality when our host reported a discussion with his wife that being an archaeologist never ends, and came to the conclusion that an archaeologist is in a way, never off duty - - maybe what he is saying that he has not got the retirement plan sorted out.

PS. Have found The Digger. It seems that a simpler happier way of life can be found just around the corner.

http://www.diggersdiary.co.uk/Digging_Br...rdLane.htm

[Steven]

Hi All

Gorilla, I am sure that there are research scientists who have similar feelings, carrying out experiments on crappy expensive drugs to help hypochondriac westerners deal with their bowel issues (brought on by stupid fad diets and ready meals). They once had a future curing cancer before being swallowed by the commercial world of drug testing. The best they can hope for is promotion to chief lab scientist so that they can go to conferences and try to get grants for some proper research. Of course for that to happen the present chief sci has to go and he's been there for years and shows no sign of going.

The Architect who had visions of designing Gaudiesque organic eco-friendly homes, his dissertation was on "socially integrated ergonomic design". Now he's working for A N Other Architects using standard template off the peg designs in order for a large developer to cover an area in squalid little houses which will all be bought up by "investment" landlords to be rented out to struggling families who can't afford to buy their own home.

Archaeologist are not alone in their disappointment about how this vocation/profession of works. There are flip sides, those people who graduate with a BA/BSc and who could fund themselves through an MA/MSc and get a their first job with a salary of £20,000 in a Council and are promoted to Principle Archaeologist two years later as they get on with the boss and aren't embarrassed by their complete lack of knowledge of, or dedication to archaeology but can do that corporate thing well. They are perfectly happy living in that converted farmhouse bought with the help of mummy and daddy. So what if they can't recognise a feature on a site and let units get away with really cheapskate work, they think archaeology is a complete "hoot".

Personally, I decided that instead of whinging (I was the biggest whinger in the hut I assure you) I started volunteering for every educational weekend/evening event that my unit was involved in. I did the arch road shows, I organised school visits (in my own time) I took on responsibilities above my pay grade and then I applied for permanent jobs until I got one, from that one I made sure I got as much training out of it as I could and then applied for every curatorial job I could until getting one I could really get my teeth into. It took me many years but I got there. I'm not saying its easy, and I'm not saying everybody can be as lucky as me, but it can be done, from digger to DC is possible. Unfortunately it can take learning skills apart from on-site and post-ex and most units don't cater for that (if any training is given) and therefore a lot of unpaid work.

This isn't meant to be a "lesson" so sorry if it sound smug (not trying to be). I think I'm making the point that we are not alone in our discontentment and individual solutions are always up to the individual not the system or the organisation they work for. We don't all start with the advantages some seem to have and have a lot further to climb but it is only ourselves they can improve our own lot.

Steven

[Unitof1]

Gorilla -being a curator- now there is something worse than ending up face down in a ditch -dont even think about it

Whats always got me about curation is why they are paid more than diggers

It can be done in ones sleep. In fact I have been thinking about trying to find out how much the council pays around here for the service and undercutting by two thirds just on principle –has anybody out there got any figures.....

[1man1desk]

Posted by Stephen:

quote:I am sure that there are research scientists who have similar feelings

I can certainly confirm that, as I have a close family member who is a research scientist working for one of our major universities.

Pay - generally a little better than archaeologists, but not much;
Career prospects - generally worse than archaeologists;
Working conditions - the system is highly exploitative. I know people who feel obliged to do a standard working day of over 12 hours; to work weekends; and, at least once a month, to work through two days and the intervening night without stopping. This is doing lab work - chemicals, glassware, operating high-pressure machinery, etc. Reports etc. required as part of the job, including publication articles, are generally written on your own time, so extra to the hours described above.
Supervision - really severe workplace bullying is very common, while the bullies are often protected by the institution, particularly if they have a good record of bringing in research funding or have a good publication record (which influences Govt funding for the department).

Watching a successful university-based scientific career develop over a 24-year period in parallel to my own archaeological career, I have never ceased to be grateful that I was an archaeologist and not a research scientist. That includes my 9 years on the digging circuit. The system depends entirely on the personal dedication of the people doing it.

The amazing thing is, they grumble far less than archaeologists do.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished