do I have muppet written on my forehead?

[Pete M]

It's called Manual Handling, and sorry but you are wrong - you can train people to lift, carry, shovel, mattock, pick and bend properly.

If you think it is better to 'graft' for 10 years than work steadily for 35 - well, we have different views.

[Pete M]

For example - if we took 10 people from this forum at random and go them to lift up and put down an empty cardboard box for 4 hours, at the end some would be crippled whilst others would be unaffected.

Entirely because of their technique.

[Cautionary Tale]

I tend to agree with merc, no matter how good your technique time will tell on everyone in the long term.

While I respect the Manual Handling regulations, some of the weight limits suggested for lifting are disturbingly low (from the view point of thinking about the weight of things I have carried without thinking, and now wondering what the damage will be).

(I really have worked in the field)

[Pete M]

I agree time does tell - but only 10 years? for peanuts?

Is it worth it?

Are new fieldworkers aware they might be washed up much sooner than they imagined?

Has anyone been digging for 30 years? (I mean all-year round). They must have some useful survival tips.

You can also wear yourself out by going at it hammer-and-tongs you know.

[Pete M]

quote:Originally posted by Barnesy

I tend to agree with merc, no matter how good your technique time will tell on everyone in the long term.

While I respect the Manual Handling regulations, some of the weight limits suggested for lifting are disturbingly low (from the view point of thinking about the weight of things I have carried without thinking, and now wondering what the damage will be).

My point is that lots of the damage is unneccesary and can be mitigated by training, which is another responsibility of the employer.

At the moment you are wondering what the damage will be - will you still be as philosphical should the damage turn out quite bad, even life-changing - and that it resulted from poor technique or being asked to lift/carry weights that are likely to damage you?

I've seen quite a few people swing picks like they're trying to kill a snake, and dig like terriers after a rabbit - and wonder why their back/knees hurt.

[Cautionary Tale]

quote:Originally posted by Pete M

At the moment you are wondering what the damage will be ...and that it resulted from poor technique or being asked to lift/carry weights that are likely to damage you?

I agree on the emp responsibility front completely, and did my best to protect people from themselves when I could. I some ways I suppose diggers should be a little selfish about this: face it somebody who's digging like a terrier is probably going to be in less than perfect control of their digging implement which means a. risk of someone else getting hurt and b. bad archaeology.

On my point about weight regs I personally had to be careful constantly for unconnected reasons (double hernia from 4), and still hadn't thought about the risk posed by just a 5kg weight which was what I was aiming at (admittedly badly - apologies for phrasing and stuff Pete M). I think the below document will be sobering for a lot of field archaeologists out there. Has anyone really thought a day of digging through on this basis?

[url][/url]http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg383.pdf

(I really have worked in the field)

[achingknees]

Next time you're on a construction site watch the builders. They don't shift spoil as we do. There is assistance from power tools, mechanisation (powered barrows, conveyors), cranes and on-site machine. This is a fairly recent sea-change - it wasn't too long ago where you would see the old navvies doing the sh*t shifting.

[mercenary]

Pete, forgive me, but what is your experience with the more physical bits of this trade? You sound very much like someone who doesn't do this year round. I hope I'm wrong. It's not black and white like you suggest. There is not a right way that prevents damage, and a wrong way that guarantees damage.

Good training in technique helps, granted; but a body wears down in any walk of life. It's a trade off. For example if you use good technique when lifting a box and keep your back straight and bend your knees, after a couple of hundred times your back will probably be not too bad but your knees will be suffering.

I've had plenty of manual handling training. Usually from people who rarely do it. I do what I can to protect myself, I'm not an idiot, but I accept I'm going wear down. I'm much fitter than my office bound friends, and less likely to have a heart attack. (Do they get sedentery life training?)

I'm also far from washed up despite feeling a bit worn, and I Never go at it hammer and tongs.

[Sith]

quote:Originally posted by Pete M
It was the director.

Interesting, so was Mr Radley. Is there a pattern developing here? I'm still unconvinced about this 90s fatality. It's very strange that I can find no reference to it anywhere.

D. Vader
Senior Consultant

Vader Maull & Palpatine
Archaeological Consultants

We are the consultants you are looking for

[Pete M]

quote:Originally posted by mercenary

Pete, forgive me, but what is your experience with the more physical bits of this trade? You sound very much like someone who doesn't do this year round. I hope I'm wrong. It's not black and white like you suggest. There is not a right way that prevents damage, and a wrong way that guarantees damage.

Merc - I excavated 5 years including winters in the early-mid 90s(breaking ice to get to the feature etc). After questioning the validity, cost and results of most excavations, I then concentrated on buildings/survey. More recently I managed a 12-month reconstruction project which involved trainees dismantling and rebuilding a cottage and outbuildings - several hundred tons of stone and earth were shifted and lifted over the year.

I'm not suggesting it's black and white - my main point is that there are lots of people doing it wrong, which is wrong. I'm not suggesting you are one of them.

The 'hammer and tongs' was an oblique reference to another thread when you said you were 'fast'.