"role is fulfilled by the IFA..."

[1man1desk]

Muddy,

You say: "Yes the IFA talks, but amoung themselves!!! They don't seem to listen to anyone outside the council".

Well, here are a few examples of why you are wrong:

If you actually read the 'IFA News and Comment' forum you will find that they are talking to BAJR.

If you look at the 'news' section on their own website you will find that they are working with other heritage-related professional institutions to develop new standards and guidance.

They recently worked with the ICE to develop a new standard Contract for archaeological investigation.

They work with the Society of Antiquaries to produce the 'SALON' newsletter, sent out regularly by e-mail to all members of both bodies.

I recently wrote to them with a complaint about a breach of Standards and they had taken effective action within two weeks.

Doesn't sound like an organisation that only talks to itself to me...

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[1man1desk]

quote:Just as a quick taster-if the crowning glory of the IFA has been simply to define standards that they cannot police and, that they have been silent on all the ills affecting archaeology today-what`s the point of their existence and why should any of us pay for nine jobs to do nothing?
posted by Troll

To be quite honest Troll, that kind of [several expletives deleted] knee-jerk reaction makes me so angry that I really struggle to stay within the AUP (not sure if I have succeeded here).

You want standards policed. What standards? Who has given us standards to police? Do you think it is easy to define standards that gain widespread acceptance? Its a bloody big achievement and its still going on!

I emphasise again - we are all responsible for policing standards, not just the IFA! I would say that those who stand on the sidelines carping but doing nothing themselves are the irresponsible parties.

As for 'why should we pay for 9 jobs to do nothing' - well for as start, you aren't paying for them, I am (together with the other members). And I think it is good value for money, because they do a lot. They just don't do the task that you have personally assigned to them as their main role in the way you want them to do it. In previous posts on this and other threads I have shown why the neither can nor should do what you want.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[muddyandcold]

1man1desk

Thanks for info.

Haven't looked at IFA website recently, thanks for the update. I am really glad to hear that the IFA seem to be adapting - perhaps the pressure of BAJR [?]

Thanks for the update

[muddyandcold]

quote:Originally posted by 1man1desk

quote:Just as a quick taster-if the crowning glory of the IFA has been simply to define standards that they cannot police and, that they have been silent on all the ills affecting archaeology today-what`s the point of their existence and why should any of us pay for nine jobs to do nothing?
posted by Troll

To be quite honest Troll, that kind of [several expletives deleted] knee-jerk reaction makes me so angry that I really struggle to stay within the AUP (not sure if I have succeeded here).

You want standards policed. What standards? Who has given us standards to police? Do you think it is easy to define standards that gain widespread acceptance? Its a bloody big achievement and its still going on!

I emphasise again - we are all responsible for policing standards, not just the IFA! I would say that those who stand on the sidelines carping but doing nothing themselves are the irresponsible parties.

As for 'why should we pay for 9 jobs to do nothing' - well for as start, you aren't paying for them, I am (together with the other members). And I think it is good value for money, because they do a lot. They just don't do the task that you have personally assigned to them as their main role in the way you want them to do it. In previous posts on this and other threads I have shown why the neither can nor should do what you want.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

Sorry to add another posting so soon after, but you posted another whilst i was typing my reply [:I]


"I emphasise again - we are all responsible for policing standards, not just the IFA! I would say that those who stand on the sidelines carping but doing nothing themselves are the irresponsible parties. "

The IFA has set themselves up as THE professional body! It is therefore their responibility for policing members, and no body else... Also there are standards - laid down by the IFA... Maybe they should work closer with DC officers. They can't have it both ways !!!

[BAJR Host]

I did write a long post about this... but my bleedin council computer failed me and I lost it....

however... the gist was that we have in the UK several organisations... CBA, IFA, Rescue, IHBC, CSA, EH, HS, CADW, ALGAO, SCAUM etc etc... of and BAJR () .... what is required... and what the IFA could be.. with support.. is to be the glue that holds it all together..

Or look at it another way - each group must have clearly defined and understood roles... clear and simple definitions which are seen by all and available to all. the IFA can't police all the archaeology that happens... thats for ALGAO archaeologists (like me and other curators) and contractors have to have recognised standards that they can adhere to and are across the board for ALL heritage workers. Add to that external 'pressure groups' such as Rescue and BAJR who act independantly but on issues that affect us all.. throw in the NAtional Agencies who should be involved in policy and protection.. etc etc.

The IFA could be the body who connects these bodies... perhaps I may suggest it if I get in

Fear not muddy... badgers have stripes... so I won't change ma spots I am and will be forever an archaeologist first and foremost..

ps... Tim at the IFA apologised for not replying sooner.... but Crimbo got in the way... expect a reply soon. And as they should be at the BAJR 06 conference... you can ask them yourself

Another day another WSI?

[troll]

I`m not willing to fall out with anyone on this issue.I will say this however.I`m not remotely interested in being polite.Neither am I remotely interested in pandering to an individuals emotional response.My issue is a simple one.There is no point whatsoever in any institute setting standards when the institute itself is so far away from the reality of modern commercial endeavour.We simply do not see any evidence of a "strong,authoritative body", nor do we see any tangible evidence for "ensuring effective self-regulation".In a sense, 1man1desk, I am almost pleased that my words have prompted anger in you. There are untold amounts of field archaeologists out here who feel that way for a living.Many have left the profession in absolute disgust and I`ve been on the brink of that for years too.I have no intention of being rude 1man, I for one value your opinion in the highest possible way-it just so happens that I disagree with you due to what I have seen in my 8 years in the job.I have tried time and time again to point out that IFA standards may just as well not exist because frankly, without a "strong, authoritative body", the commercial (and academic) world of archaeology does as it pleases.As a professional, that induces rage.As a member of the public, that induces vomit. Please, and this is the last time that I will ask politely, stop passing the responsibility for this pantomime to the workers-workers who desperately try to surpass IFA standards but are ------ed in their efforts by morons who are more interested in profit margins than doing their jobs. Straight from the horses mouth-"this role is fulfilled by the IFA". 1man1desk- lets start looking at how the status quo can be changed for the better.Please allow the IFA to defend themselves.

..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)

[troll]

Churning out new standards and guidelines when we all know that they are regularly ignored is pointless.Talking to BAJR is commendable but one man out of 6,000? Standard contracts have been in place for years.A newsletter to the Society of Antiquaries has what impact on the problems in current commercial practise exactly? Effective action within two weeks? 1man1desk-you recently suggested that I provide the IFA with one example of a breach of codes of practise/conduct and then wait 6 months.When most field projects can be as short as a couple of weeks, any intervention is simply too little too late.Six months? You really don`t do them any favours as a volunteer marketing officer sir.There are some horrific problems in commercial archaeology and there has been for years.The IFA have not moved to confront those issues once to my knowledge. Before I came to archaeology as a profession, I worked in industries where accountability was paramount and, codes of practise strictly adhered to and yes-enforced.Since working in archaeology-I`ve never seen anything quite like this before.All I am asking is that the IFA honour their own mission statement.Or retract it.

..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)

[1man1desk]

Standards and guidance are a useful, strong tool - that is why curators and consultants use them in briefs, WSIs and specs. That does not mean that the IFA are powerful, or in a position to enforce them by themselves.

Curators are much more powerful, and in the S&Gs the IFA have given them a tool that helps them to enforce standards - which is in part what our taxes pay them for. Also, curators have power over all contracting/consulting archaeologists, not just IFA members.

On effective action and timescales - what do you expect them to do? send in a hit squad and say 'stop work at once'? they would get arrested by the police! Effective action from any professional body can only be in the form of disciplinary investigation and sanctions afterwards, and the IFA have shown that they are willing to do that. Before they do it, they are bound to carry out a thorough investigation. Do you think that can happen quickly? However, the 6 months was my figure not theirs. The actual example I gave was effective action by the IFA in 2 weeks. Seems bloody fast to me. Once again, I encourage you to actually try it to see if it works before you condemn it.

You are still too busy making baseless, broad, unspecified attacks on the IFA without providing any evidence (as I have for the opposite case) to actually address the real issues or to look at what the IFA actually does do.

You say the IFA do not honour their mission statement. I say that is not true - but the impression I also get is that you personally will not put your action where your mouth is. You want action from others but won't take any yourself. You devote a lot of energy to writing complaints in this forum in very general terms, but won't write a single letter to the IFA giving specifics.

At the outset of these discussion some months ago I was a fairly lukewarm, if long-term, IFA member. The upshot of the discussions is that I am now far more strongly committed to them than I was before, because I have been made to really think about what they do and what they have achieved. All I can say is that without the IFA, British archaeology would be in a much worse state than it is.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[1man1desk]

To supplement my previous post - it seems that we are going round in little circles with this argument. It is very hard to argue against prejudice that will not listen to logic.

"none so blind as they that will not see"

I am getting very frustrated with the apparent determination in some of these discussions to concentrate only on complaint/condemnation without thinking about the positives - its almost enough to drive me out of BAJR discussions altogether.

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[roywhiting]

1man, I for one haope that you keep contributing to these discussions. I fully agree with your comments (having just seen this thread for the first time today) about the IFA and the attitude of a minority of individuals who use this forum. You have provided a counterweight to some of the lunacy