14th January 2008, 11:45 PM
Starchers belives I'm talking a load of Dribble.
Presumadly then so are all the Aboriginal Activist who say the same?
Incidently what was the percentage of Australians who supported Howard over Tampa and saw nothing wrong in locking up 5 year olds in Woomara (all polls showed over 70%).
And I suppose all those white/black/yellow/migrant/Aussie born/Labor activists/Christians (special mention for the Uniting Church) who have consistently fought for Land Rights, against Deaths in custody and against the Refugee Policies were all talking Dribble?
Or just the ones born in the UK?
Easy to find out really go along to the Indigenous Department, the Anthropology department, the Law department and the Archaeology department of UWA and ask all those Indigenous and non-indigenous teaching staff who have consistently organised and taken part in such activities to explain the 'dribble'.
British colonialism has been responsible for much of the worlds history of racism and through policies of divide and rule and white English supremist ideas surpressed the Irish, the Native Americans, divided the Indian subcontinent, 'caused' Ian Smith, South Affrica (with help from the Boars)surpressed the Welsh, Scottish played off Sinhalese and Tamil and stole people and produce from Affrica.
Begium did for Rawanda, Japan for the Anui the Koreans and China, Vietnamese communist fought French and the US (after killing 5000 Vietnamese Trotskyists) and then turned on their ethnic Chinese in 1979.
And now of course Bush and his alliance has destroyed Iraq and wants to pick a fight with Iran (a country who has not invaded another in 800 years* the west then friend Sadam invaded them).
All Colonialists of whatever colour or country has practised racist Imperialism. Even the lovely Dutch killed 'their natives'
Nobody can be responsible for their ancestors, but governments consistently right the wrongs (sometimes) of past government policies.
Little Johny Howard Apologised to the Vietnahm vets...
Starchers says "I may add that it started when the British colonised and continued for long after that".
Yes, I aggree 100%, whats your point?
I've heard this used often as an argument for not Apologising to the stolen generation for Government Policy British and Australian of stealing children right up until 1973, in fact its used by a friend of mine who is a direct descendent of a family (consistently part of the ruling class) who arrived in WA in 1829.
Federation was based on an alliance of Labor and Capital against the Chinese, the White Australia policy, now when did that end, not a hundred years ago 1973. The Capitalist feared the competion, the 'Socialists' [sic] for jobs and they all worried about the Chinese taking 'their' women.
So what do mean by this comment about British colonialism, its a bit circular really Brits became Aussies or do you think Australians with British Ancestry are more to blame than Aussies with Italian Ancestry for any recent racist policies?
Would you be arguing in the same manner if I was an Aboriginal person?
Surely its not that you just cannot stand poms 'coming over here and criticising 'my' country'.
I think not because you are obviously not a racist and such an argument would hint at it wouldn't it?
You see I'm presuming you agree that since I am as much a citizen as you I have an equal right to attack the racist policies of former Australian governments?
Here just as in the UK what anti-racist would ever dream of suggesting that a migrant had less knowledge, or right to argue his or her opinion based on the country they were born in.
I mean this does happen to me rather a lot (who could ever think why?) but then again before 1989 people used to shout "Get back to Russia" which was always a little confusing because I had'nt realised I came from there.
But then the people shouting seemed so sure, so I must have, a bit like the non-racist people who although having never met an Aboriginal person in their lives tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
I suspect you think I'm proud to be British or some such Nationalist rubbish. You think I think the UK better?
I'm not proud or unproud to be anything, just human sometimes (although I sometimes wonder if I might get a lift to some other planet [thats a joke]).
I mostly aggree with Pilger but don't aggree with Howard, Malcolm X not Nixon, Tony Benn not Thatcher or Blair, trotsky not Stalin, Victor searge more than Trotsky, etc, etc.
And I am not a member of anything. I'm just me, who has been around a bit and read a couple of books.
When in India I have also seen BJP politicians (who ferment anti-Muslim and anti Christian) blame all Indias problems on British Rule.
The bright young Australian Nationalism of Keating et al conveniantly blames Britain for war mistakes and casts Australians as egalitarians and Brits as rulers.
Starchers you also said (before withdrawing from the argument because you felt it was all dribble)
"You obviously feel passionate about this, however you are just spewing forth diatribe and vitriol so I'm not going to engage you in any of this".
'Diatribe and Vitriol', 'Please explain', attack the argument please.
What I would like you to try in order to see if perhaps some residual racism might still live in Perth an Empirical experiement, pick any time period two weeks a month a year and read all the local papers and watch the News count the percentage of letters and articles supporting say an apology to the stolen generation and those viscously attacking the idea, then you could compare the opinions to BHP supporters in Leeds (sorry Leeds) Neo-Nazis in Germany and Rom (Gypsy) hating biggots in Italy Romania or Ireland.
You see I think a racist, is a racist is a racist.
Perhaps I've made my point now?
But specifically you claim that I talk of things that are a hundred years old.
Well I don't but I do think that archaeologists and historians have an important role in uncovering the past and seeing how it links to NOW.
Facts that can be checked.
There is a shortage of archaeologists in WA hence the large numbers of Archaeologists coming from the Eastern states.
An honours student from UWA did walk into a $90000 a year job a couple of years ago with BHP (surely you know him?).
The pay is much better than ever one could get in the UK.
My suggestion about archaeologist coming from Europe to work here came about when my definately non-racist university tutor suggested that "we don't want British archaeologists coming here".
Perhaps it was a joke?
Strange thing to say though, especially when this person had often praised Mulvaney who trained under Clark at Star Carr.
But it did annoy me
I worked for Onsite archaeology in York which at the time I worked was the best payed work in the UK (might still be).
Despite the shortage UWA produced two honours gaduates this year (I'm one of them).
One Aboriginal archaeologist will get his honours later.
An other Aboriginal archaeologist I did my undergrad with is now studying at Flinders (Move not to do with racism).
However, I was there when other students said insulting things to him.
University education has been one of the few areas in Australia where Indigenous people have done well throughout the country.
Many people becoming Doctors and Lawyers (similar to the first students to be allowed to go to University in Northern Ireland after 196:face-thinks: and the change was because of noisy angry people fighting for equal rights in both places.
And in both places the white, black, catholic and protestant people who fought for change were seen as commie trouble makers who kept harping on about the past and its result for the present.
However, at UWA for many years until about six months ago no other department would have much to do with the archaeology department. This was to do with a scandal unrelated to racism (And irrelevant to this discussion).
However this did result in departments such as Ancient history having nothing to do with archaeology.
There is a thriving Indigenous department at UWA doing a brilliant job in mentoring Indigenous students.
My basic degree (the system is different from the UK) was in Anthropology and Archaeology. There is a great deal of cross over between students taking Indigenous studies and Anthropology.
In my four years at UWA there has never been any relationship between the Indigenous Department and the Archaeology department.
This is a shame since many Indigenous students misstrust Archaeologists because of the early history of White Archaeologists stealing their Ancestors bones.
One of my Indigenous friends who studied Anth with me is now on the Local Land Council and helped win the first Urban Land Claim in Australian history. This means the right to enter and care for country, hold ceremonies, be consulted etc. No money no property rights a bit like an APOLOGY.
The Ruling Labor Party (whose political base is the Corrupt Police Union)is fighting this claim with all the money the boom can bring through the highest courts.
This is a good example of Institutional Racism.
As is the refusal to allow Indigenous people a monument in Kings Park (A New one going up soon to Anti-Land Rights Ant-Union diseased Court), the curfew for Aboriginal children in North Bridge (recently extended out.. if they keep extending they will end up in Nedlands!), the struggle for years after the Old Swan Brewery site was lost to Nunga people, by one Aboriginal man to paint a nearby seat in Aboriginal colours, the cutting of the Aboriginal Health service, the chronic (continuing) underfunding of the Department of Indigenous Afffairs, the lack of monuments and recognition of Indigenous people throughout Perth.
All this last FIVE YEARS.
Also when I went on the Fremantle Gaol tour (2 years ago) the guides were ex-screws, the one we had didn't even point out the wonderful paintings on the cell walls by Jimmy Pike, one of the most important and acclaimed Aboriginal Artists ever. This gaol burnt down during an uprising in 1988 (closed 1991)when Indigenous and non-Indigenous prisioners rioted after being kept in a tin shack in temperature of over 50 degrees C.
Such incidents of this, deaths in custody, and making the Aboriginal people of Roebourne live on a Grave Yard all occurred in recent years nothing like a hundred.
The proportion of Archaeology students who do a joint Anth/Arch degree is miniscule.
This is not because of racism from the arch department (all the teaching staff in Arch have always been Ant-racist).
However, some of the students in the Archaeology department have attitudes which result from Institutionalised racism of their society.
The majority of students are not racist (but some were).
However, there you go now.
I'd better go now, should have slept last night and now I've got to spend a bussy day talking dribble to my Aboriginal Mental Health clients.
Come to think about it, I might just stay as a nurse and not bother to apply for any archaeology jobs now.
OK off to work I'm going to have consider telling my Aboriginal Clients, coworkers and friends that they are talking dribble, then I can 'fit in' and enjoy a nice white BBQ somewhere in totally unracist Perth
Arthus
Presumadly then so are all the Aboriginal Activist who say the same?
Incidently what was the percentage of Australians who supported Howard over Tampa and saw nothing wrong in locking up 5 year olds in Woomara (all polls showed over 70%).
And I suppose all those white/black/yellow/migrant/Aussie born/Labor activists/Christians (special mention for the Uniting Church) who have consistently fought for Land Rights, against Deaths in custody and against the Refugee Policies were all talking Dribble?
Or just the ones born in the UK?
Easy to find out really go along to the Indigenous Department, the Anthropology department, the Law department and the Archaeology department of UWA and ask all those Indigenous and non-indigenous teaching staff who have consistently organised and taken part in such activities to explain the 'dribble'.
British colonialism has been responsible for much of the worlds history of racism and through policies of divide and rule and white English supremist ideas surpressed the Irish, the Native Americans, divided the Indian subcontinent, 'caused' Ian Smith, South Affrica (with help from the Boars)surpressed the Welsh, Scottish played off Sinhalese and Tamil and stole people and produce from Affrica.
Begium did for Rawanda, Japan for the Anui the Koreans and China, Vietnamese communist fought French and the US (after killing 5000 Vietnamese Trotskyists) and then turned on their ethnic Chinese in 1979.
And now of course Bush and his alliance has destroyed Iraq and wants to pick a fight with Iran (a country who has not invaded another in 800 years* the west then friend Sadam invaded them).
All Colonialists of whatever colour or country has practised racist Imperialism. Even the lovely Dutch killed 'their natives'
Nobody can be responsible for their ancestors, but governments consistently right the wrongs (sometimes) of past government policies.
Little Johny Howard Apologised to the Vietnahm vets...
Starchers says "I may add that it started when the British colonised and continued for long after that".
Yes, I aggree 100%, whats your point?
I've heard this used often as an argument for not Apologising to the stolen generation for Government Policy British and Australian of stealing children right up until 1973, in fact its used by a friend of mine who is a direct descendent of a family (consistently part of the ruling class) who arrived in WA in 1829.
Federation was based on an alliance of Labor and Capital against the Chinese, the White Australia policy, now when did that end, not a hundred years ago 1973. The Capitalist feared the competion, the 'Socialists' [sic] for jobs and they all worried about the Chinese taking 'their' women.
So what do mean by this comment about British colonialism, its a bit circular really Brits became Aussies or do you think Australians with British Ancestry are more to blame than Aussies with Italian Ancestry for any recent racist policies?
Would you be arguing in the same manner if I was an Aboriginal person?
Surely its not that you just cannot stand poms 'coming over here and criticising 'my' country'.
I think not because you are obviously not a racist and such an argument would hint at it wouldn't it?
You see I'm presuming you agree that since I am as much a citizen as you I have an equal right to attack the racist policies of former Australian governments?
Here just as in the UK what anti-racist would ever dream of suggesting that a migrant had less knowledge, or right to argue his or her opinion based on the country they were born in.
I mean this does happen to me rather a lot (who could ever think why?) but then again before 1989 people used to shout "Get back to Russia" which was always a little confusing because I had'nt realised I came from there.
But then the people shouting seemed so sure, so I must have, a bit like the non-racist people who although having never met an Aboriginal person in their lives tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
I suspect you think I'm proud to be British or some such Nationalist rubbish. You think I think the UK better?
I'm not proud or unproud to be anything, just human sometimes (although I sometimes wonder if I might get a lift to some other planet [thats a joke]).
I mostly aggree with Pilger but don't aggree with Howard, Malcolm X not Nixon, Tony Benn not Thatcher or Blair, trotsky not Stalin, Victor searge more than Trotsky, etc, etc.
And I am not a member of anything. I'm just me, who has been around a bit and read a couple of books.
When in India I have also seen BJP politicians (who ferment anti-Muslim and anti Christian) blame all Indias problems on British Rule.
The bright young Australian Nationalism of Keating et al conveniantly blames Britain for war mistakes and casts Australians as egalitarians and Brits as rulers.
Starchers you also said (before withdrawing from the argument because you felt it was all dribble)
"You obviously feel passionate about this, however you are just spewing forth diatribe and vitriol so I'm not going to engage you in any of this".
'Diatribe and Vitriol', 'Please explain', attack the argument please.
What I would like you to try in order to see if perhaps some residual racism might still live in Perth an Empirical experiement, pick any time period two weeks a month a year and read all the local papers and watch the News count the percentage of letters and articles supporting say an apology to the stolen generation and those viscously attacking the idea, then you could compare the opinions to BHP supporters in Leeds (sorry Leeds) Neo-Nazis in Germany and Rom (Gypsy) hating biggots in Italy Romania or Ireland.
You see I think a racist, is a racist is a racist.
Perhaps I've made my point now?
But specifically you claim that I talk of things that are a hundred years old.
Well I don't but I do think that archaeologists and historians have an important role in uncovering the past and seeing how it links to NOW.
Facts that can be checked.
There is a shortage of archaeologists in WA hence the large numbers of Archaeologists coming from the Eastern states.
An honours student from UWA did walk into a $90000 a year job a couple of years ago with BHP (surely you know him?).
The pay is much better than ever one could get in the UK.
My suggestion about archaeologist coming from Europe to work here came about when my definately non-racist university tutor suggested that "we don't want British archaeologists coming here".
Perhaps it was a joke?
Strange thing to say though, especially when this person had often praised Mulvaney who trained under Clark at Star Carr.
But it did annoy me
I worked for Onsite archaeology in York which at the time I worked was the best payed work in the UK (might still be).
Despite the shortage UWA produced two honours gaduates this year (I'm one of them).
One Aboriginal archaeologist will get his honours later.
An other Aboriginal archaeologist I did my undergrad with is now studying at Flinders (Move not to do with racism).
However, I was there when other students said insulting things to him.
University education has been one of the few areas in Australia where Indigenous people have done well throughout the country.
Many people becoming Doctors and Lawyers (similar to the first students to be allowed to go to University in Northern Ireland after 196:face-thinks: and the change was because of noisy angry people fighting for equal rights in both places.
And in both places the white, black, catholic and protestant people who fought for change were seen as commie trouble makers who kept harping on about the past and its result for the present.
However, at UWA for many years until about six months ago no other department would have much to do with the archaeology department. This was to do with a scandal unrelated to racism (And irrelevant to this discussion).
However this did result in departments such as Ancient history having nothing to do with archaeology.
There is a thriving Indigenous department at UWA doing a brilliant job in mentoring Indigenous students.
My basic degree (the system is different from the UK) was in Anthropology and Archaeology. There is a great deal of cross over between students taking Indigenous studies and Anthropology.
In my four years at UWA there has never been any relationship between the Indigenous Department and the Archaeology department.
This is a shame since many Indigenous students misstrust Archaeologists because of the early history of White Archaeologists stealing their Ancestors bones.
One of my Indigenous friends who studied Anth with me is now on the Local Land Council and helped win the first Urban Land Claim in Australian history. This means the right to enter and care for country, hold ceremonies, be consulted etc. No money no property rights a bit like an APOLOGY.
The Ruling Labor Party (whose political base is the Corrupt Police Union)is fighting this claim with all the money the boom can bring through the highest courts.
This is a good example of Institutional Racism.
As is the refusal to allow Indigenous people a monument in Kings Park (A New one going up soon to Anti-Land Rights Ant-Union diseased Court), the curfew for Aboriginal children in North Bridge (recently extended out.. if they keep extending they will end up in Nedlands!), the struggle for years after the Old Swan Brewery site was lost to Nunga people, by one Aboriginal man to paint a nearby seat in Aboriginal colours, the cutting of the Aboriginal Health service, the chronic (continuing) underfunding of the Department of Indigenous Afffairs, the lack of monuments and recognition of Indigenous people throughout Perth.
All this last FIVE YEARS.
Also when I went on the Fremantle Gaol tour (2 years ago) the guides were ex-screws, the one we had didn't even point out the wonderful paintings on the cell walls by Jimmy Pike, one of the most important and acclaimed Aboriginal Artists ever. This gaol burnt down during an uprising in 1988 (closed 1991)when Indigenous and non-Indigenous prisioners rioted after being kept in a tin shack in temperature of over 50 degrees C.
Such incidents of this, deaths in custody, and making the Aboriginal people of Roebourne live on a Grave Yard all occurred in recent years nothing like a hundred.
The proportion of Archaeology students who do a joint Anth/Arch degree is miniscule.
This is not because of racism from the arch department (all the teaching staff in Arch have always been Ant-racist).
However, some of the students in the Archaeology department have attitudes which result from Institutionalised racism of their society.
The majority of students are not racist (but some were).
However, there you go now.
I'd better go now, should have slept last night and now I've got to spend a bussy day talking dribble to my Aboriginal Mental Health clients.
Come to think about it, I might just stay as a nurse and not bother to apply for any archaeology jobs now.
OK off to work I'm going to have consider telling my Aboriginal Clients, coworkers and friends that they are talking dribble, then I can 'fit in' and enjoy a nice white BBQ somewhere in totally unracist Perth
Arthus