Double Standards

[kevin wooldridge]

... I ought to add that after the recent cuts NE are due to lose 1/3rd of their staff and as most of the archaeological community isn't aware of the vast amounts of money they pour into archaeology the in-house archaeologists are looking like an easy target - some regions are down to one staff member to cover 6 counties already.

Hopefully Chrysalis you can keep us updated on the situation at Natural England when the true extent of the proposed cuts is known. It will be sad if the organisation has to shed any of it's frontline staff - I think they are a good example of how a holistic approach to both the natural and heritage environment can be beneficial to all parties concerned.....

[Unitof1]

Defra/NE took eh NMP data and pretend that the archaeology has not been ploughed out although every time anybody ?COSMIC- has gone to look they have found even things the sizes of long barrow ditches are gone but you get to call yourselves archaeologists (part of the 2829?) and you bring archaeology into your grotty lets give money to extremely large landowners so that they can buy really big subsoilers because that?s what they do every five years when they use so called min till /zero till practises that you lot think are so wonderful. Looking out my window do I see the difference to archaeology from NE-No, tears wept- none.

what was the plough practise on thefield in Staffordshire with Anglo-Saxon treasure or the Roman coins, were those fields protected in one of your schemes

[BAJR]

Chrysalis these definately need a couple of threads.

Another short terms short sighted action... please tell us more (in a new thread) so we can publicise it. What Union would be involved?


and the HER - why to record... Do please start that as a thread... its a good start.

[chrysalis]

Oh dear Unitof1, it must be horrible to be inside your head. One day you'll be blocked from this site and we may be able to have a grown-up discussion without fear of inaccurate ranting nonsense. Go and read the NE website on what is and isn't eligable for grants as previous efforts on this site to enlighten your ignorance on a variety of other subjects have failed and I cannot be bothered to try. You are off topic as usual.

Until that day I will merely go back to the point, namely while the use of HERs by illicit metal detectorsts is reprehensible and (anecdotally) does appear to be happening the duty to report to HERs remains upon every responsible archaeologist/interested party as the HERs have many other uses.

This specific case of treasure hunting in marine waters does seem to be in breach of international law
http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/projects/i...-sokal.htm

Breaking the law is not the way to highlight problems with it, lobbying your MP, MEP or other elected representative IS the way to go, particularly if you have a more sensible proposal and have demonstrable public support e.g. via a petition

[BAJR]

Thanks for that... and yes Uo1 ranting off topic etc will be monitored.

[Stephen Jack]

Oh dear Unitof1, it must be horrible to be inside your head. One day you'll be blocked from this site and we may be able to have a grown-up discussion without fear of inaccurate ranting nonsense. Go and read the NE website on what is and isn't eligable for grants as previous efforts on this site to enlighten your ignorance on a variety of other subjects have failed and I cannot be bothered to try. You are off topic as usual.

Until that day I will merely go back to the point, namely while the use of HERs by illicit metal detectorsts is reprehensible and (anecdotally) does appear to be happening the duty to report to HERs remains upon every responsible archaeologist/interested party as the HERs have many other uses.

This specific case of treasure hunting in marine waters does seem to be in breach of international law
http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/projects/i...-sokal.htm

Breaking the law is not the way to highlight problems with it, lobbying your MP, MEP or other elected representative IS the way to go, particularly if you have a more sensible proposal and have demonstrable public support e.g. via a petition

France is not a signatory. Try again

http://portal.unesco.org/la/convention.a...nguage=E&o

[Stephen Jack]

In this particular case, it is very much a case in point... The archaeologist is the enemy... hostile and stupid... the detectorist a paragon of virtue, trying only to discover that which the archaeologist will never find... etc........ reverse the terms archaeologist/detectorist where appropriate.

Stephen jack does me no credit to think I won't know the laws in France... indeed it is complicated, however... Detecting in France is illegal without appropriate licence. simples.

In broad terms the law says that to search on any land be it your own or someone elses, not only do you have to have the landowners permission in writing, but by virtue of the fact that you are searching for objects which could concern/interest prehistory, art or archaeology you are required to obtain administrative authority from the Prefect of the Region. This authority comes in the form of a license which may be issued after reference to the searchers identity, competance, experience and method of searching. Regard is also taken of the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken.

Failure to take notice and act upon this could result in the confiscation of the metal detector being used and a fine.

It is believed that beach detecting falls outside of this law.

If your French is good enough you may be able to glean more info from the following site:
http://www.tresors.com.fr/ When you get on the home page scroll down to the link to la-Loi.

So in terms of being confused etc... its not.... in terms of being strict... it is - surprisingly this is the same for archaeologists as well... so no need to feel vicitmised, rather you are being treated in the same way as an archaeologist. Detecting finds artefacts.. and I will always always push for recording. just the simple act of recording.. I don't want to take it all... just know about it.

Thanks

BARJ

listen very carefully I will type this only once. Detecting is not illegal in France. There are classes of objects where you need authorization to search for them. Be under no illusion this authorization is not a license but a barrier its only issued to archaeologists.

[BAJR]

illegal without appropriate licence.... is what i typed. So if you detect without a licence, i would say you are committing an offence... hence illegal without a licence. Does this mean you can detect without any licence

From the NCMD eu law section: note that beaches are 'believed to be outside this law" but as soon as you are detecting with the intent to recover artefacts, then .. well .... give it a go and find out.:face-huh:

The use of metal detectors was controlled by the use of the war time Patrimony Act 1941 but, on the 18 December 1989 Law Number 89-900 (NOR: MCCX8900 163L) was adopted. However see appendix (L542) adopted in 2004.
Article 1: No one may use metal detecting equipment for the purpose of searching for monuments and objects which could interest (concern?) prehistory, history, art or archaeology without first having obtained administrative authorisation issued according to the qualification of the applicant and also the nature and method of searching.
Article 2: All publicity and instructions on the use of metal detectors must carry the warning of the prohibition stated in Article 1, the penalties involved and also the reason for this legislation.
Article 3: Every infringement of the present law will be noted by officers, police agents and other law enforcement officers, as well as by officials, agents and guardians of Article 3 of the law number 80-532 of 15 July 1980 relative to the protection of public collections against acts of vandalism.
Article 4: The reports drawn up by the various persons designated by Article 3 above will, until proved to the contrary, be given or sent, without delay, to the public prosecutor of the Republic in the jurisdiction where the offence was committed.
Under French law the enactment of legislation is followed by the Decree which determines how the law will be applied. In this case the Decree states:
Article 1 The authorisation to use metal detectors, provided for by Article1 of the 18 December 1989 Law is granted, on the demand of the interested party, by the license of the Prefect of the region in which the land to be searched is situated.
The request for authorisation must establish the identity, competence and experience of the applicant as well as the location, scientific objective and the duration of the searches to be undertaken.
When the searches are to be carried out on land which does not belong to the applicant, the written application must be accompanied by a document of consent written by the owner of the land and, if appropriate, anyone else who has the right.
Article 2 Anyone who uses a metal detector to carry out searches of the sort described in Article 1 of the Law without having first obtained the authorisation required or who does not observe the requirements described in Article 1 of this Decree will be punished by the fine applicable for contraventions of the fifth class.
The equipment used in the infringement will be confiscated.
Article 3 Whoever publicises or draws up publicity for, or draw up information about the use of metal detectors and fails to draw attention to the requirements of Article 2 of the Law will be punished according to the penalties applicable for offences of the fifth class.
Beaches are believed to be outside this Law.

Appendix (L542)
Art L542: No one can use equipment allowing metal target detection, to search monuments for objects of interest to pre-history, history, art or archaeology, without having first obtained an administrative authorisation, which may be given depending on the qualification of the applicant, as well as the nature of and reason for the research. Those who contravine are liable ti fines within the band class 5. The purpose of this regulation is the protection of archaeological sites. The authorisation of archaeological research using metal detectors requires the permission of the prefect of the area concerned.

[Stephen Jack]

You fail to recognize the fact that there are classes of object where no authorization to search is required, intent though is at the root of these laws. 'Intent' thats what its all about.

Beaches are difficult to classify clearly due to overlaping laws and jurisdiction issues. Proving intent on a beach is also problematic.

The law in France as it is, is said by some Archaeologists to be a complete failure. There are studies that support this, I just need to track them down.

[Oxbeast]

Hello Steven,

Its very easy to prove your intent. You have put it in writing:

"There are some mud flats that keep coughing up silver coins with the date 1600. Its very difficult to search this area so I'm building an boat 1m long which can tow barges with different detecting equipment. "

Your intent is to build a rig that can be used for area prospection for archaeological remains. The fact that the coins are of the same date suggests that you are looking for a hoard. Anyone can find this post by googling your name. A hoard, of lots of coins dated 1600 surely count as "objects of interest to pre-history, history, art or archaeology". If not, why not?

I'm no legal expert, and neither are you from the sounds of it, but I should think that the 'intent' clause is there to protect people who are looking for water pipes or something and accidentally find something archaeological. Anyway, best of luck with this.