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[BAJR Host]

Eggy old mate... thanks for the heads up on the new benchmarking system (wondered what they would call it when I already have Grades and Levels!)...

As to SCAUM having teh upper hand... it is better to work with than against... and slowly but surely.. BAJR and BAJR advertising contractors is just getting on with setting a standard on Pay and Conditions creating a level playing field (with room to pay staff more.. and thus get better staff.. and thus do teh job quicker.. and thus etc....) Every Contractor that advertises with BAJR has to agree to pay on or above the minimum pay levels.. (rising each year.. this year a 2.95% pay rise across the board.. brought in by BAJR!)

I do not make the rules... the contractors do by accepting the conditions ... glad to see the IFA are catching up. I am still open to working with them.

[eggbasket]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Eggy old mate... thanks for the heads up on the new benchmarking system (wondered what they would call it when I already have Grades and Levels!)...

Well, it's obvious that they need to have standards of eggsellence. So, one egg means they stink while five means they are thoroughly good eggs.

Cheers,
Eggbasket

There's nothing like a Dane ...

[disappointed]

alot of what's been said rings very true.
i've been digging for five years. archaeology was, and still is, the only job i've ever wanted to do, however, somewhere along the line real life and self-respect kicked in and i've recently left - hopefully, to pursue dentistry (not totally capitalistic). i reached that terrible stage of actually wanting to buy a house, have a home and start a family (weird, huh?) and 200 quid a week and no stable employment won't let me do that.
add to that the galling fact of being expected to guide and instruct new graduates for the same pay and same position on the career ladder. no thanks, i'm worth more than that.
it's a crying shame, and i'm not the only one who feels like this. yet the profession as a whole seems content to watch this steady drain of expertise and knowledge and takes no steps towards rectifying the situation.
how hard would it be to increase tenders? as has rightly been said, developers can more than afford it, in fact the construction industry views archaeologists as something of a joke, given the low prices and lack of professionalism.
what's more the ifa could actually do something constructive (god forbid) and co-ordinate some short additional professional courses, that would give people something official to show their progress up a career ladder (actually, any sort of career ladder would be good), for example, surveying (civil engineering, really) or site recording -how many new graduates can fill out a context sheet adequately or keep a running matrix?
as regards wages, it's not a question of whether archaeology is affiliated with the construction industry or not, but that archaeologists are skilled workers and should be paid as such, not as site labourers. it's not capitalistic, it's not selling out, it's standing up for yourself.
i've been keen for some time to actually do something about this, i've left the profession and don't care about being blacklisted, but i feel like i'm spitting into the wind. any thoughts?

[troll]

disappointed-cast yer eyes over my latest "through new eyes".... Also- if we could persuade all site assistants to go self-employed and set a reallistic day rate system....

[deepdigger]

"I would say that pay for new entrants to archaeology is not bad at all". are you taking the piss?
i started an apprenticeship in a garage in 1977 and was earning ?20.00 per week then. since then i've been to college, got a degree and am only earning ?50.00 per day. by comparison this is f*****g awful.
if i went back into the motor trade i could easily take home ?500 per week, the money in archaeology is terrible, especially when you find out what the unit you are working for is charging for private jobs!and at least then i wouldnt get laid off at the end of every job or at holiday time and xmas. really this should not be at the top of anyones career list. it is bloody interesting though (bugger)




deep

[drpeterwardle]

I think some waters are being mudded here ...
for example:

"i started an apprenticeship in a garage in 1977 and was earning ?20.00 per week then. since then i've been to college, got a degree and am only earning ?50.00 per day."

In 1975 I earned UKP 2.20 per day working in a book shop. In 1976 I earned UKP 14.60 + accommodation (tax free) for a 40 hour week working in York. In 1977 I earned UKP 149 (what - yes it is true) with free accomodation (UKP .50p for heating). On graduation I earned UKP 94 per week (plus free accomodation in a caravan).

I simply will not be believed what I earned as a post graduate.

After post grad I had a job in the area I wanted on a salary of about (I think) 9k. I bought a house (allbeit a small one next to a chemcial works) as most of my friends did.

Not a major wage but I could afford the basics (I could afford to drink and have a mortgage).

Sorry I am rambling ... my point in the seventies "pay" was not that bad - the conditions ie subsistence payments, lack of job security were not that great.

The notion that developers can afford more is naive. The notion that archaeologist are not taken seriously is partially true.

It is simply not that easy for everybody to put up their prices and pay people more. For example everybody would have to do it at the same time for it to work.

I suggest that we have to consider things like the ratio of pay to charge out rates. I think we have to look at productivity (and quality). In my view developers paying more would not solve the problem (it might help though).

Peter

[sniper]

well, looking at charge out rates compared to pay rates would be a start, considering I had a sneaky peek at the costings on my bosses desk and found out I was being charged out at twice what I am actually getting paid... which I knew anyway, but now I definitely know

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[vulpes]

Sniper, instead of having a 'sneaky look' at project costings on your bosses desk, why don't you ask them to show you how projects are costed. There are other costs to go on top of just paying your wages to take into consideration. Remember, if you work for an organisation with a commercial basis they don't just need to be competitive in order to get contracts, they also need to make some surplus if the company (and your job) is to survive. I think that perhaps you would be surprised at how small this surplus is once you have subtracted these other costs.

[the invisible man]

Deepdigger, perhaps I did not make myself clear. My point was that pay for someone ENTERING the field of work, with no experience, is generally round about that of the rates advertised for diggers. I only have to look through the sits vac in our local papers to see plenty of full time jobs paying around 8000 - 12000. I then observed that the problem seemed to be that it never goes up after that, the rates then fall well below other walks of life, a point which others seem to have made as well. Thus someone with 3, 5 or 10 years exerience is on pretty much the same money. Higher grade jobs on BAJR seem to offer very low salaries indeed for the experience and qualifications required.

If archaeology charged what it is really worth it would be part of the development costs, sanme as any other new legislation, and will ultimately be passed on (by the developer) to the end user.

[Oxbeast]

Its also nearly impossible to buy a house on a salary of 10-13k. Even a small one next to chemical works. Not having secure contracts makes getting a mortgage more difficult. This is a major disadvantage compared with the '70's; people just find it impossible to get onto the housing ladder.